Society of Motor Omnibus Engineers.
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Discussion-on the Paper by Mr. Worby Beaumont.
The reading of the paper concluded, the Chairman (Mr. F. C A. Coventry) said he was sure the paper would lead to a prolonged and interesting discussion, and, as they did not want to be kept out of their beds longer than was necessary (laughter), he would, at once, call upon Captain Deasy to open the discussion.
Captain Deasy said he felt very much like a flail out of water, in being called upon to address any remarks to a body of motorbus engineers. He was not a motor engineer, nor an aeroplane engineer, or anything of the sort, but just a plain man trying to make a little money by making motorcars. (Hear, hear.) He took a great interest in motor omnibuses owing to his having been interested in one of the motor-omnibus companies of London. He thought a great deal depended upon the financial success of motor-omnibus companies, and he thought such success would have far-reaching effects not only upon motor omnibuses, but, also, upon all other kinds of commercial-motor vehicles. He felt convinced that, with adequate supervision and proper management, motor omnibuses, especially in London, should pay, and should pay very well. At the same time, he thought that the present motor-omnibus companies were labouring under very great disadvantages, and he would come straight to what he considered to be the principal disadvantage, namely, the question of fares. It had, often, been brought home to hint that the fares in London were too low, far too low. He had mentioned the matter to one or two gentlemen connected with, what he might call, the offending company and they were quite in agreement with him, and he had, also, mentioned the matter to the company which was responsible for not increasing the fares. It was to be expected that the fares of motor omnibuses would be increased, very shortly, and would be increased to a not inconsiderable extent. They had got to face the music; let them face it at once. Mr. Beaumont had condemned the speed, which he considered excessive. He, the speaker, had always advocated a more moderate speed in the interests of everyone, in the in. terests of the motor-omnibus companies and in the interests of the shareholders. The speed was excessive, and they could not make it pay. There was, at present, a craze, on the part of the public, for speed, but it was not to their interests that that craze should be indulged to an unlimited extent. The speed should not be above 12 miles an hour, and it should vary according to the roads and the traffic. He had been on some roads in London which were quite unsuitable for motor omnibuses, but on which omnibuses were being driven much too fast. If the omnibus companies would devote their attention to compelling the drivers to moderate their speed, it would be to the interest of everybody concerned. Another point was the daily mileage. Mr. Beaumont had alluded to a mileage of 120 miles a day, and, sometimes, even more. That was, in his opinion, far and away too high. About 100 miles a day, and that for only six days out of the seven, was ample. The reason was that he considered that. it was imperative to give the men, who were responsible for the examination, time to do it (hear, hear), and, if possible, to let them do it in daylight. That, of course, could not be done always, but they should be given the best conditions, in order that they might make their examinations in the most satisfactory manner. As regarded taking the body off the chassis, he though a great deal depended upon the chassis: the ideal chassis should not involve its removal, once a week, for the necessary examination. That point led to another question and a most important one, one that had not been touched upon that evening, namely, the crystallisation of metals. He was ignorant of the effect of constant vibration on steel and other metals, and it would be interesting to know what was the result of the effect on the metals used in different types of omnibuses, and how long the state of those metals could be considered satisfactory. That was a point to which, he thought, sufficient attention had not yet been directed. As soon as that was known, he thought they would come to an idea of what was a reasonable, and adequate amount to allow for depreciation. At present, they were in the dark. Mr. Beaumont had alluded to racing. He thought, perhaps that it would be wiser for him not to dwell too much upon that point, but, at the same time, he thought it was much to be deprecated, from the point of view both of the users and of the shareholders. He was not speaking from a sporting point of view but from a business point of view. Sufficient attention, he was convinced, had not been paid to the syetematic inspection of omnibuses on the road, and he felt sure that a good deal of money would be saved, if there were a competent staff of men on the road, he might
call them "diagnosers," who could see what was necessary to be done. He had, often, passed vehicles on the road which were knocking badly and with steam coming from their radiators, and he had noticed that those vehicles were allowed to run on, until they would not go any further, That pointed to a lack of adequate supervision on the road. With regard to moderate-sized vehicles, and the suggestion that they should be tried, Mr. Beaumont had used the expression "single-deck omnibuses." That was a combination of words which, persolidly, he was sorry he had ever heard. (Laughter.) He was quite sure that single-deck vehicles would never pay in London, unless the faxes were considerably higher, and higher than they could, ever, expect them to be. It would be better to devote their attention to more careful and adequate supervision, and to endeavour to economise in the expenses of running. Another point, upon which he felt strongly, was combination. He felt convinced that it would be to the interests of the motoromnibus companies in London if they could agree on certain lines, such as time, wages, etc. His remarks, he felt, would not be complete without saying a few words about the drivers. He thought it was wonderful that they had been able to get such a large number of men who were able to drive, and to pull up, the vehicles in the manner in which they did, and he considered that the men were deserving of a great deal of credit. One word more, upon a question upon which he knew a little, namely, as to the police. Many people had spoken to him about the police. He, himself, judged of things as he found them, and not as ether people told him he ought to judge them. He had, always, found the police, both the Commissioner and those under him, exceedingly fair. The Commissioner and those under him had a very difficult task to perform. They had to consider the interests, and the safety, of the public, and he did not think some users of motor omnibuses had thought, quite sufficiently, on the other side of the question. He would suggest asking those who complained about the police, if they always endeavoured to abide by the regulations, or if they thought that a different arrangement might he more advantageous to them? In conclusion, he thanked the company for listening to him, and Mr. Beaumont for his interesting paper.
Mr. Burford said that, in listening to the very interesting paper by Mr. Beaumont, he had felt sorry that Mr. Esse should have tied the lecturer down to giving them a survey of the pre-historic period of some of the vehicles. He had had the privilege of working House's steam system years ago, and he submitted that, if any steam car could have been made suitable for road traffic, that car would have won. As to the Harrogate Corporation buying the Torquay omnibuses, if the Company had made a capital loss of some R5,000, and the omnibuses were sold, he did not see how that could be turned into a financial success for the shareholders of the Torquay company. Very little progress had been made with some of the vehicles since the time of George Stephenson, and they still had the same trouble with the old steam pot. They had heard much in the Press, lately, about the steam car, but, if it possessed so many advantages over the petrol car, he wondered why gentlemen, when they were selecting their cars, did not buy one. He thought the society was to be congratulated on the session so far, and on the arrangements that had been made for papers to be contributed by eminent gentlemen. (Hear, hear.) As to the Canstatt Daimler Company, the progress of that company, from the date mentioned in the paper until now, had been most marked, but it had not been done without hard work and the expenditure of a great deal. of money. The car which that company had now had cost them considerable heartburnings and a considerable amount of money. He would have liked the paper to have dealt more with the problems that motor-omnibus engineers had to deal with, at the present day, and with suggestions for dealing with those problems. He had candid, and vary strong, opinions on this matter. If he understood the operating engineer's position properly, he understood that he was engaged to see to the working of the cars which the people who engaged him had bought. But he discovered that the operating engineer, being fond of machines, went in for studying how he could save five per cent. on any spares that might be bought. (Laughter and hear, hear.) There were two faults with that system, namely, they were neglecting the principal duty they were engaged for, and it was impossible to manufacture in a small way in comparison, with what they could buy at elsewhere. Further, they had arm expensive staff and a considerable expenditure on plant, and, the sooner they devoted more time to inspecting the vehicles on the road, the better it would be for all parties concerned. The operating engineer should spend two-thirds of his time on the road and see where the breakdowns occurred, and what was happening on the road, and should not trust so much to the reports of the men, The writer of the paper had mentioned speed. Mr. Beaumont knew that he had been urging, for some two or three years, that the speed at which vehicles were run in London had brought the question before the police and had added 25 per cent, to the cost of the upkeep of the vehicles. This question did not arise until the keen competition arose between the various companies. Competition had driven the speed up to a point at which it was impossible to run the vehicles and, at the same time, earn a dividend for the shareholders ; after all, these companies were formed for the purpose of earning dividends for the shareholders, and were not formed for the sake of the engineers. He understood that the police would not, now, pass any vehicles geared to run at more than 12 miles per hour. He thought it was, now, understood that it was necessary to let vehicles stand, more frequently, to give them a better inspection. That was another good point in favour of the Commisstoner of Police. He could not agree with Mr. Beaumont that the smaller omnibuses had something to do with the evolution of the omnibus in the future. He could not see how the omnibus carrying only 18 passengers could ever be made to pay. The single-deck car might be fit for country purposes, but it was not fit for London work. As to the question of progress with the petrol motor, in the last three or fleet years, greater progress had been made with petrol internal-combustion engines than with any other piece of machinery they could point out to him. There were still greater improvements to be made in the internal-combustion engine, and his firm was, still, working away at it with a certain ideal in front of them, and he did not think that type of engine would ever be surpassed for the purposes of road traffic. As to the "tin toy fan," that sounded curious. His firm did not employ a "tin toy fan," so that they did not have that difficulty. As to the accessibility and taking down of the engine like a watch, that sounded very pretty; but how one could imagine that a machine which had to carry seven tons along a road, and to carry it 100 miles daily, cuuld be taken to pieces like that, he failed to see. If a vehicle had to be inspected every month, to see if the wheels were still inside, it did not say very much for the machine. He had bad the privilege, on the previous Frinday, of taking an extended run in a machine of a design discussed in a paper recently read to the society, and he was of opinion that that machine when fully developed would provide a higher efficiency than all the present petrol omnibuses. In that machine there were removed the three great difficulties : the driver difficulty, the working parts were considerably reduced, and, as to the question of noise, there was practically no noise at all. Properly developed, he believed there was a great future before that machine. Then, as to the police : well, he knew something about the police. (Laughter.) His experience, within the last six months, had, practically, been Scotland Yard to Tottenham Court Road, and Tottenham Court Road to Scotland Yard. As a manufacturer, he had suffered by, what some might call, police persecution, yet, he felt that the Commissioner of Police had done more for developing the motor-omnibus industry, within the last six months, than anyone else had done. They had brought the machine up to a point which they would not have done if the Police Commissinner had not forced these regulations upon them. They would, probably, always have some sort of difficulty with the Commissioner's power which was autocratic, but they had to abide by his decision, and, if they worked cordially with him and gave him all the information they could, he thought they would have no cause for complaint. He thanked Mr. Beaumont for his paper. (Applause).
Mr. Campbell Swinton thought they had heard a most interesting paper, but he agreed with the last two speakers on one point and that was, in their disagreement with Mr. Beaumont's ideas as to single-deck omnibuses. As to the question of the police, that was a very delicate point and difficult to deal with without giving offence. He was on the staff of Scotland Yard, but not in connection with motor omnibuses : he had to advise Scotland Yard on all engineering questions, except motor omnibuses, so he thought he could speak on both sides with perfect impartiality. There was no doubt that the Commissioner of Police had had to labour under enormous difficulties, for the police had received a tremendous number of complaints, from people on the omnibus routes, as to the smell and noise ; on the other hand, they had to deal with an industry which was developing almost too quickly, owing to Stock Exchange requirements of which he, personally, did not approve. (Hear, hear.) If any representative of Scotland Yard was there and conveyed his remarks to that place, he hoped they would convey them correctly. Their grievance was that Scotland Yard did
nut deal with those complaints on commercial lines. There was the same grievance meth regard to all Government departments. When Scotland Yard sent him matters to report upon, he was often tempted to deal with them on the same lines as all Government departments did. If anyone else sent him something to report upon, he, generally, reported in a day or two but, if Scotland Yard did so, he found that he need not report for a month because they never answered a letter of his within a month. He thought that if anyone in connection with this industry had a grievance it was that. if they had a chassis which they wished to be passed, it was a question of great importance that it should be passed at once. (Hear, hear.) They had a lot of drivers, and a lot of capital, standing idle, and it was a question of importance that there should be no delay, but, in dealing with Scotland Yard, there was a great deal of delay. It was the same with other Government departments, but that was no reason why it should not be complained of. If any other business was carried on upon the same lines as the Government departments, it would be bank. rupt within a month. If Scotland Yard would only realise the enormous amount of loss caused by this delay, they would gain a great deal. He hoped he had not given offence to anyone connected with Scotland Yard. As to the road. In any form of carrying vehicle for passengers, they had to look at the vehicle that travelled, and the road that carried the vehicle, as parts of one mechanical contrivance, and one was just as important as the other. With railway and tramway companies it was fairly simple, because those companies provided the road on which their vehicles travelled. With motor omnibuses, and other private vehicles, it was different : the road was provided by a different set of people from those who provided the vehicles, and they wanted to bring pressure to bear upon those who were responsible for the road surface. In London, in many places, the roads were simply disgraceful. They had the London County Council who spent millions upon trams, and, he thought, it would be much better if they spent 10 per cent, of that amount on the roads. Nine-tenths of the noise and vibration of the omnibus was caused, directly or indirectly, by the roads. Directly, owing to the vehicles bumping up and down, and indirectly, because the vehicles got into a condition in which they rattled a great deal. If they could bring any influence to bear to improve the roads that would be most beneficial. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Clarkson had greatly appreciated listening to Mr. Beaumont's paper which, coming from a man of his weight and experience, was, naturally, highly instructive. He was, particularly, struck with the figures given by Mr. Beaumont as to the efficiency of the earlier cars. It really made one surprised, on reading his figures, that those vehicles were able to run at all successfully, commercially. He was, also, much interested in Mr. Burford's remarks. He thought it would be a calamity for Mr. Burford if the steam omnibus were removed from the roads (laughter), for Mr. Burford appeared to find so much pleasure in referring to and dealing with them. He, personally, believed that the steam omnibus had not yet reached its full possibilities. He thought it was possible to get, from the present omnibus running in London, double the amount of mileage per gallon that they got at present. He believed that exude petroleum could be used advantageously in place of the present paraffin. Mr. Beaumont had referred to the question of pipes being subject to pressure. That was so, but it was, simply, a question of construction and of knowing how to make joints which would bear pressure. As to the question of feed pipes, he had known the time when some parts of the feed mechanism had to be renewed every week, but that was due more to the shocks than to the working pressure. He found out how to get rid of those shocks and the result was that, instead of having to renew those parts two or three times a week, they, now, found that once in three months was sufficient. 'Ehe single-deck omnibuses which had been tried in London had not been found to have anything like the earning power of the double-deck bus, but, on the other hand, the expenses were very much smaller. Mr. Burford had referred to the sale, to the IIarrogate Corporation, of the Torquay omnibuses, but the Corporation had nothing to do with it ; it was, simply, a private venture at Harrogate, as it was at Torquay. Another company had, now, been started, in Torquay, to run another service of omnibuses of the same character as before. When Mr. Beaumont came into the region of prophecy, he was, naturally, very careful. He would like Mr. Beaumont to give them some idea of the possibilities of development in petrol engines and whether they might expect double the power per gallon of petrol, or whether it was to be limited to 10 or 15 per cent. He had, that day, taken some of the weights of the omnibuses as they passed him. In two cases of petrol omnibuses the weights were 4 tons 15 cwts., and 4 tons 9 cwts., respectively. A steam omnibus of the same company weighed
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4 tons 13 cwts. including water, so that there was not much n
the question of weight. One thing they, as engineers respon. sible for the running of omnibuses, needed to appreciate more, was the doing away with some of the noise. Lubrication was not paid so much attention to as it should be. Lubricating oil was an essential part of the construction and, if they could save a quart of oil per mile, that meant a saving of several thousands of pounds a year, upon a hundred omnibuses. Ile was glad Mr. Beaumont had called attention to the need of better organisation in the garage and on the road. They all recognised that they were pioneers in this matter, and that they must be prepared to receive hard knocks and to get over them. The motor omnibus would undergo such developments within The next 12 months as would place it far ahead of any possible competition from electric trains. (Hear, hear.) The Chairman, here, pointed out that it was obvious that they could not finish the discussion on the paper that evening, and that it would have to be adjourned, but he would like to hear anybody present, then, who could not be present at the adjourned meeting. Mr. Clay said that small reference had been made in the paper to consumption. He had had some correspondence with Mr. Beaumont, on this point, some months ago, when that gentleman was reporting on an engine in which he, the speaker, was interested. Mr. Beaumont said, then, that a 45h.p. engine was too large, he thought, for London, and, when asked why, he said that his objection was consumption. But his omnibus, running for the London General Omnibus Company, was showing a consumption of seven gallons to the mile, which compared very favourably with the smaller power omnibuses of the same company. This was on the Hornsey Road route, not the easiest in London, and they were in the hands of men who had been used to horse vehicles. He hoped this point would be dealt with, namely, whether these larger engines were more, or less, economical than the smaller engines. The meeting then adjourned till the 4th of March, when, after other gentlemen have contributed to the discussion, Mr. Worby Beaumont will reply.