House of Lords and Middlesex Toll.
Page 17
Page 18
Page 19
If you've noticed an error in this article please click here to report it so we can fix it.
The Final Discussion. Official Report ol Debate on Third Reading.
Lord Montagu of Beaulieu moved to omit. from the Bill Clause 21- As to traffic service on Work No. 1.
2.—(1.) For the purposes of this section—
The expression "the company " shall mean any authority company or person working or running any service of mechanically-propelled omnibuses on any part of the new roadway (Work by this Act authorized: (2) The company shall pay to the council a sum equal to three-eighths of a penny per ear mile run by any such omnibus over the new roadway (Work No. 1) by this Act authorized towards the cost of the maintenance of such roadway. All sums of money payable to the council under the provisions of this section shall be paid quarterly and shall be deemed to be a debt due to the council and recoverable from the company accordingly.
(3) The company shall keep daily records for the purposes of this section showing in proper detail the number of journeys and the mileage run by each such omnibus of, the company on the new roadway and shall furnish statements of such journeys and mileages quarterly to the council and the company shall allow any person duly authorized by the council in that behalf at all reasonable times to inspect and take copies of all such records and any accounts kept by the company relating to the running of any omnibus of the company.
(a) All sums received by the council under the provisions of this section shall be carried to the general county fund.
Grounds for Omission.
The noble Load said: My lords, f move this amendment first on behalf of those who, like myself, are interested in the general free use of the roads, and, secondly, on behalf of the Road Board, xvlio have from the commeneement opposed this clause ; and I ask your Lordships to omit it also on the ground that if this question is to be dealt with at all it should be by general legislation. I do not in any way claim to represent the interests of the particular motor-omnibus companies affected by this clause nor those of motor-omnibus companies in general. The companies concerned were represented before the Parliamentary committees by able counsel, and it is not part of my business to-day to argue over again the case which was very well put before the committees of both Houses a hen the Bill was being considered in those stages. But there were certain points not mentioned before the committees and other points which I think were not sufficiently emphasized, and to-day T propose to draw your Lordships' attention chiefly to those points.
ft cannot be denied that there is a general consensus of opinion that heavy motor traffic., including traction engine traffic, should pay more towards the maintenance of the roads. No one can use the roads to-day without seeing the immense amount of damage dene by heavy traffic to roads which are quite capable of carrying the ordinary motorcar and horse traffic, but are rod constructed for this heavy traffic. I am one of those who think that we roust have general legisla'ion on this question, and I throw out as a suggestion f.hat it would be perfectly fair, for instance, to ask 'heavy motor traffic to forego the rebate of lid. on inotor spirit and to pay, as we all do who use motorears, 3d. a gallon. and that amount might be used by the Road Board in paying For special damage or in giving grants in aid of maintenance in addition to the present. grants for new work,
This ease, of the new western road is unlike other cases that come before your Lordships, inasmuch as the Road Board have given X-100,000 towards the estimated cost of making this new road. I had a conversation on the subject with Sir George Cribb, the chairmarl of the Road Board, and be has authorized me to say that when we gave this large sum of money for this nece.saary western exit out of London we never had it in contemplation that there would not be a general steer of the road. When we have given grants we have always insisted that the general public should have the same nights over the particular road as over any other road—namely, the rights of free coming and going ; and if we had thought for a moment that this clause would have been inserted by the Committee of the other House and agreed to by the Committee of your Lordabips' House we should have taker) a different view of the position and probably would not have given so much towards this improvement.
The New Road to be Strongly Built.
The object of constructing this exit is to surmount the great difficulty which many of us have experienced of getting out of London westward. There is the well-known narrow neck at Brentford only 13 ft. wide, and there are other places where congestion occurs between Knightsbridge and Hounslow, and it was to get rid of this congestion that the Road Board made this large grant towards the construction of this western road, and we hoped that as much traffic as possible would be diverted from the old narrow road to this new road, which is, I may mention, being built stronger than other roads especially in order that it may be abre to withstand heavy modern mechanically-propelled traffic. Therefore we were naturally very surprise, when we found that the committees of both Houses had passed a clause whereby threeeighths of a penny per mile per motor-omnibus is to
be charged o I over a portion of the new roadway. n other words, a traction engine can go along that.. road weighing up to 16 tons and pulling two trucks weighing 10 tons each, and motor lorries can go along the road conveying an amount of heavy material weighing very much more than a motor omnibus. These traction engines and motor lorries are not only heavier than motor omnibuses, but they are run on steel-tired wheels and therefore do more harm to the roads than motor omnibuses, which are run on rubber-tired wheels. Yet motor omnibuses are to be charged mileage, whereas no charge is to be made in the case of these other heavy vehicles.
Piecemeal Legislation Condemned.
About a fortnight ago the Government announced that they were going to appoint a Joint Committee to go into this question of heavy traffic, and to recom, mend what alteration should be made in the law or what regulations should be issued by the Local Goveminent: Board on the subject. That announcement was, I am sure, welcome news to many of the home counties near London, the ratepayers of which are heavily burdened in the matter of Toad maintenance for traffic originating outside their borders and from which they get no benefit whatever. The whole question is one which needs ia,reful consideration, and to treat this subject in the piecemeal way proposed in this Bill and make a. charge for it particular five miles of road, a new road specially designed to carry heavy traffic, is, in my opinion, to deal with the matter in the wrong way. The Road Board offer no opinion themselves, and I do not pretend to voice their opinion, on the question as to whether or not heavy traffic should contribute. I, personally, say it should. In regard to the proposal contained in the clause ell which I am asking your Lordships to delete, the Road Board thought it wise to put on record in a letter to the Local Government Board smile of their objections to the proposal, and on 15th June they wrote setting forth their objections to the clause, the gist oi their letter being that " Motor-omnibus traffic does not injure a road properly constructed and properly maintained.'
That, I think, is a self-evident proposition, We have evidence of that fact constantly, not only from surveyors in large provincial towns but from surveyors in London. The opinion of the latter is that none of the great trunk roads of London--Piccadilly, the Strand, Regent Street, and so on—has been damaged by motor-omnibus traffic. I could even quote evidence from surveyors to show that the cost of road maintenance in Westminster and Marylebone has decreased from what it was at tho time when horsedrawn omnibuses were on the roads. There is no provision in this Bill which will prevent motor traffic from continuing to use the old road, and therefore one of the objects for which the Road Board gave this large contribution—namely, that the traffic should be diverted on to the new and properly-constructed road in order that the congestion which now arises on the old road should be avoided—will be defeated.
Communal Upkeep the Wisest Course.
Decisions under the existing law given in many eases decided in your Lordships' House and in the Courts elsewhere have laid down the general right of user of the roads, subject alone to the question of extraordinary tra.ffic. 1 believe that every distinguished lawyer now admits that the question of extraordinary traffic is an exceedingly difficult one, and one of the objects of this Committee which is to be set up will be, I understand, to make clear the law on that point, and, if possible, to lay down more precisely what extraordinary traffic is. At the present moment I cannot do better than read to your Lordships a passage from a judgment by Lord Moulton, in which, in a recent case, he laid down the law relating to the user of the roads. He said this " The community have come, definitely to the conclusion that absolute freedom of user coupled with common upkeep of the roads is the wisest thing for the nation."
That states in general terms the general right of user of the roads by the public as a whole. I could read other quotations from judgments on that point, but I do not think my argument will be contested by the promoters of this Bill No Occasion for Haste.
I submit that if the Middlesex County Council feel that they aught to make some charge in respect of this user of the new road by motor omnibuses, it would have been wiser if it had been subject to one or two other conditions. One would have been that there should have been evidence taken after three years user of the road by this class of traffic, and that then some approximate amount should be 3harged for special damage. Another way would have been to ask the Road Board their opinion on. the matter, and the Road Board might have given even more than they have given rather than allow the Middlesex County Council to make this special charge. I maintain that, supposing the Middlesex County Council are right in their contention, there is plenty of time within the next two years in which to deal with the matter. I may remind your Loedships that this read will take a long time to construct, certainly not less than two years, and before it will be fit for use there will be. no doubt, sufficient regulations on the subject and the difficulties will probably be swept away.
It is a dangerous precedent to set up a special toll on fivemiles of this new road. When they begin with C!2 one kind of vehicle there is nothing to prevent their proceeding with another kind. This proposed charge upsets the whole of our highway law ever since the Act of 1868. Moreover, if we allow these privileges to the Middlesex County Council, which spends a very small percentage of its income on its roads, hew can we refuse the same kind of relief to agricultural communities which suffer much more from traffic of this kind. I leave the case there, and I trust that your Lordships will give it your consideration. Speaking both as student of road matters arid as a member of the Road Board, I think this is an ill-advised clause, and I hope your Lordships will agree to delete it 'Not Based on Any General Principle.
The Earl of Meath: My Lords, I rise to support the amen(
Iment which has just been moved. This matter is not a local one only ; it involves a general principle, and one that 1 think ought to be very carefully considered. The general principle to my mind is this, that by this clause a special tax is going to be put on a special kind of vehicle. The effect of that will be that those vehicles will either avoid the new road altiigether, or the proprietors will recoup themselves by charging higher fares. One of the great problems of the day is how to obtain quick, cheap, and rapid transit from our large towns to the country. We are always complaining of the congestion of population and the difficulty there is of obtaining houses for working people and the lower middle class, and it is therefore of the greatest importance that the poor man's motorcar, which is the motor omnibus, should be as cheaply run as possible. If a special tax is going to be put on motor omnibuses, the fares charged must necessarily . be higher than is absolutely necessary. It is quite open to argument that heavy traffic ought to be taxed more than light traffic, but I cannot see where the argument conies in if vou tax only one particular kind of heavy traffic. 11'rs.t.tion engines sometimes have behind them six enormous trucks, almost like railway trucks, which break up the strongest road. Why are not they to be taxed if motor omnibuses are to be taxed ? You ought to go on some general principle and tax all heavy traffic or none at all. Therefore in the interests of the public and in the interests of getting the working people out of our towns rapidly and bringing them back rapilly, I support the amendment which the noble Lord has moved to omit this clause,
The Duke of Bedford Urges Retention.
The Duke of Bedford : My Lords, as chairman of the Committee of your Lordships House by whom this Bill was considered, I hope your Lordships will Tint agree to the amendment to delete this claus. This is a Bill promoted by the Middlesex County Council to make a new road which will form a very important outlet from London to the West or England. The new road leaves the main road at Hounslow, and passes through Brentford, but not on the route of the present Brentford road, and joins the West of 'England road on the other side of Brentford. Many of your Lordships know the condition of the old Brentford road. As long ago as the old coaching days this road was condemned, as one of the worst approaches to London. Nothing, however, was done. But when motor omnibuses came into existence a new road became absolutely necessary, and with the creation of the Road Board came the possibility of construction. The Road Board agreed to contribute 75 per cent. of the total cost of construction, the ether 25 per cent. falling upon the ratepayers of Middlesex. The length of the road is five miles, and the estimated cost &00,000.
The question of motor-omnibuses is the question which is dealt with by Clause 24. Your Lordships know the enormous damage which is done by meter omnibuses to country roads all over England. These, vehicles have got on the roads under conditions
extremely favourable to themselves. In the case of a. tramway undertaking the promoters have to come to Parliament-, and Pareantent imposes cella itions upon the tramways for the upkeep of the roads. It is not r.oIvith motor -omnibus companies. All the owners have to do is to obtain a licence, anal havieg got a licence they can establish a line of omnibuses on any ol the existing roads without anybody's leave ; they may damage the roads as much as they like, and you cannot get anything out of them. We had it in evidence before the Committee that at the annual meeting of the urban district cenincils held last year, at which 200 councils were represented and 400 delegates were present, the following resolution was -,eteeed;-
" That this conference is of opinion that local authorities should have the power of laying down defined roads for omnibus traffic, and such traffic should eimtribute towards the cost of road maintenance in addition to the petrol tax at. present levied."
The petrol tax at present goes to the funds or the Road Board, and the motor omnibus companies claim that, inasmuch as the Road Board has contributed to the cost of this new road, they (the motor omnibus companies) have contributed in that way to the original cost of construction. That. is not disputed. But that does not alter the fact that they will be absolutely free., unless this clause rr-rrmiii ii the Bill, f row ever paying anything at all for the damage which they may do on this new road. That. is the ease with all roads throughout the country. lt is only when a ii err road is constructed and before that road is dedicated to the public that the road authority-in this case the Middlesex County Council -can come to Parliament and ask to be given a clause potting some restrictions on this motor omnibus traffic. That has le‘en done in the present ease.
Continuous Traffic " Swinging Along."
When this Bill was hefore the Committee of the ether House the Middlesex County Conneil asked that they should have the righl to prohibit imotor
mnibuses coming on to this road at all. The ConsInoue Committee thought. that that was going too far, but they agreed that litotor omnibuses should contribute to the upkeep of the road. That is the history cif how Clause 24 came to be inserted in the Bill in the other House, arid this clause was agreed to by the Committee of your Lordships' House. The noble Earl on the Cross Benches (Lord Meath) is quite right when he says that motor omnibuses carry a large number of persons belonging to the class of the community who cannot afford any other form of motor carriage. But, of course, the motor omnibus is not a benevolent institution upon wheels run for philanthropic purposes. All these motor onmibuses are the property of companies trading for profit, and if you put a charge upon them for the damage they do to the roads you diminish the profits, and that explains the opposition of the motor omnibus companies to this clause. The noble Lord who moved this amendment asked why motor omnibuses should be taxed and not other heavy mechanically-propelled vehicles. The reason is that the traffic of motor onmibuses is
continuous ; they pass to and fro frequently. The noble Lord said that he could produce evidence that in Westminster and Piccadilly motor omnibuses did not do much harm to the roads. When the traffic is congested motor omnibuses have to go slowly and do less damage. But on open roads they go swinging along at a rapid pace and do more harm. I do not know whether the noble Lord objects to the principle of taxing motor omnibuses for the repair of the roads. Lord Montagu of Beaulieu: I stated that I was in favour of some scheme whereby you could make the taxation of heavy vehicles a general principle, but that I was not in favour of dealing with the question in this piecemeal manner. The Duke of Bedford I understand that the noble Lord -does net object to the principle of taxing motorbuses, but thinks that this is the wrong moment, to begin on account of anticipated legislation which is to preeeed from the intention to appoint a Committee to inquire into this matter. I do not know whether the noble Lord can say when we shall get this iegislation. It may be three or four years before anything is alone. Are we to make no attempt in the meantime to put sonic charge on inut-or omnibuses?
The Chairman of the L.C.C.
Viscount Peel :My Lords, the noble Lord who has moved (his amendment has made sonic rather remarkable statements about motor omnibuses and the Lund-on roads. May I say, first or all, that no doubt it is against principle to go back to what may be called to some extent the old turnpike system as regards charging specifically the vehicles that rise Inc roads and not throwing the whole of the cost on the general taxpayers. But I think that principle ought to be revised to some extent, because when you have these tremendous changes introduced by new machinery arid an enormous cost cast upon the already heavily-burdened ratepayers, it. is time that you should reconsider the principle of whether you should net put some specific charge on a particular class of vehicle that does a particular amount of damage to the roads. I agree that on principle it would be better that that money should be charged by the Central Government, and that then a larger grant should be given to the local authority by the Central Govern-int-pi in order to make up for the damage. But one has had particular experience in the London County Council of the treatment local authorities get from the Government. The Government are rather fond of laying taxas on specific forms of property that we thought were particularly -our own ; and they promised us in various cases when the Lax was imposed that we were going to get half of it. I ant afraid thatif they had the taxation in this case we could not accept their promises, and therefore as a yiis oiler, perhaps, it is better that the money should in the first case go to us
Peculiar Statements and Allegations.
These motor omnibuses can net only run on one road but they can run on any road they choose. I run perfectly content that if they are properly controlled they should not have a specific charge laid upon them ; and on the London County Council we have again and again asked that we should have, not only for London but for Greater London, a road authority which should control the streets on which. motor omnibuses should run, and that they should not have freedom to run on any road. Lord Montagu, with some temerity, I thought considering that he is a member of the Road Board, told us that very little damage was done by the running of motor omnibuses on the London roads, -and he cited -one or two eases. It is quite true that, as regains the maintenance of the roads, there is some saving to be set against wear and tear ; but that is only true. of one or two particular places in London. I can give this very strong evidence the other way, that I have been battering at the Road Board to give us in London other improvements, and what is the reply of the Road Board ? Their reply is that so much damage is done by this new form of traffic to the roads that for the present they will give us nothing, but will concentrate the whole of their grants on the actual maintenance of the roads themselves, showing that in the opinion of the Road Board an immen-se amount of damage is done by motor omnibuses. Therefore, although T feel that the principle is a dangerous one and no doubt the matter should be fully examined, I shall support the noble Duke's Committee in this specific instance as a. protest against the way in which motor omnibuses are allowed to roam freely over the whole country without any central control being exercised.
(To be continued.)