Ronnie Cox goes west
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The new Glasgow PTE's first director-general, who moves from gm of Edinburgh Corporation to take up the post, outlines his priorities in an exclusive interview with Martin Hayes
Martin Hayes: I know the new Glasgow Passenger Transport Area covers some 700 square miles. What undertakings does it include?
Ronald Cox: The whole of the Glasgow transport fleet and the whole of Central SMT. There is also a lot of inter-running between the other bus companies of the Scottish Transport Group into the new designated area. There is a tremendous amount of railway mileage and, of course, the Glasgow Corporation underground system as well.
MH: What about the work force?
RC: Well, there will be 6500 on immediate takeover, which is likely to be in June. I was appointed on January 5 and I will become full time director-general on April 9.
MH: Have you any comments about the state of the undertaking at present? A substantial deficit is predicted for the year ending in May. Have you any thoughts on what that is going to mean?
RC: The Scotsman indicated on January 16 that the Glasgow transport system was Vim in deficit and a report has been made to the Secretary of State by the department. I would rather hope that, before the vesting date is announced by the Secretary of State (when the Executive will become functional), some decision will have been taken about the deficit situation.
MH: How will the present managerial staff of the various undertakings fit into the structure of the PTE?
RC: We shall take over the whole of the staff. In connection with the present general manager at Glasgow, Mr Murray — if I have my way he will be offered a very attractive post. I will go further and say that he would be my choice as No. 1, if that's any help. As I say, I hope to have some influence on the appointment and that would be my selection. This point has already been made to the PTA formally.
MH: The PTE can have a maximum of nine members, I believe.
RC: Yes. The Statutory Instrument says that the PTE shall consist of a director-general and not less than two but not more than eight other members, so there could be a total of nine. It is unlikely that there would be, but there could be nine.
MH: What do you think is the optimum number? RC: Well, I think four plus t director-general, five at most.
MH: Is that based on the experience of 1 other PTEs?
RC: Yes, and indeed on the requirements the Glasgow area. It will be necessary have a director of planning, a director finance and certainly a director operations. I would certainly also like director of personnel and industr relations.
MH: How closely have you looked at i operations of the other PTAs?
RC: I am getting a considerable amount help from the other four directo general already. I have only to ask tht and assistance is forthcoming. T general concensus of opinion is that executive director is necessary operations as a senior man and that we a need a good finance man, a good plant and an industrial relations executive.
MH: The existing four PTEs were all set at about the same time. Glasgow is the fi of the next batch, if you like. What lessc can you learn from the mistakes a experience of the others that can apply your operations?
RC: Certainly, a lot of progress has lx made in the PTEs and I would hope that t directors and myself will have the benefit the advice of the directors-general. I do know of any mistakes. They have probal taken decisions which, in the passage time, they would not have taken. But tilt are lots of good things coming out of PTEs.
MH: Are there any points that you thi are particularly important?
RC: Well, I think West Midlands at moment are endeavouring to rational their fare scales and their vehicle fleet. Th are negotiating with Midland Red I purchase of part of the Midland fle SELNEC have already purchased and operating the whole of the North West( fleet and are in the act of taking ot Lancashire United Transport, Merseysi are taking over St Helens and Southp while Tyneside are taking in Sunderland. it seems to me that the lesson has alrea been learnt in the four other PTAs ti there has to be one controlling hand for t whole of the bus operations, at least. I thi that there is going to be a big impact in t . year or two in those areas, and ainly in Glasgow, on the rail services.
"ou see, the Act requires consultation veen the PTE and British Rail's Scottish on and the Scottish Transport Group. se are musts: it is quite clearly written the Act that this must be done.
: How do you think the future is going tffect the relationship between the rail bus networks?
: Well, I hope that it will become closer. tainly, I will make my best endeavours ensure there is as close as possible tionship with the three main entities: 3, BR(S), and the PTE.
:: What are your personal thoughts on re modes of transport? I know that e of the PTEs, particularly SELNEC, e done a lot of work on means other i buses.
: I can foresee in the Greater Glasgow i that there must be an interchange veen rail commuter traffic and new bus ices. I would wish that when the sgow underground system — which is rely the, responsibility of the Executive s modernized it will be altered along the ; of the new Victoria line in London. It i also be possible to link the old sgow Central low-level line to a lernized underground system.
i: Can we turn to subsidies. Do you k passenger transport can be completely funding?
: No. Quite categorically, no. I used to, I cannot see it being self-funding in the re and I think that either local rate aisition precept or national exchequer its will have to subsidize transport. I eve that in the new block grant system ch is going to apply, certainly in ;land next year, and probably in Cand in the year after, you will find 7e is a very large measure of subsidy for d passenger transportation.
I: Do you think that is the best way of dying an exchequer grant?
: I think that it is a sensible way of dying it and I think it is not just a stion of baling out an undertaking which sunning into a deficit situation. I think matter of improving the environment by dying Government and local government ney to see that cheap journeys are :rated in all the PTAs to keep a lot more s off the road and to get buses and other milers through.
I: Do you feel that there is a level at ,ch you can balance fares and the nber of extra passengers you can 'act?
: Yes, I do. I am not suggesting for one ment that there should be free transport. D not believe in free transport. I believe in ow flat fare, possibly no change and rsidized transport. Indeed, you will be are that this very month we are teavouring to evaluate a flat fare, change system in Edinburgh.
I: Have you any thoughts on what a sonable cost per mile might be?
!: No — I think its horses for courses. :at might be a 3p fare in a small place old have to be a higher flat fare in a er area. I think it just depends upon the ber of passenger movements and the numbers of vehicles and miles operated which would in turn affect the size of the fare.
MH: What about Glasgow?
RC: Glasgow is a pretty big city and the area is a big area and I would never expect transport from one boundary of Greater Glasgow to the other to be on a flat fare basis. But I think that there must be areas within that conurbation where a flat fare system could operate.
MH: Have you any thoughts on modern bus design?
RC: I'm a great believer in a good clean bus with nice lines. I also believe in panoramic windows and we have pioneered them here with every success. We incorporate as much as we can in the plastics field in our buses and we do not have a paint brush inside any of them now. We wash our buses every night.
MH: What about one-man versus two-man operation? This is a particularly live issue at present with London Transport's recent announcement and the report from the Transport and Road Research Laboratory. RC: I am still convinced that there are savings to be made from o-m-o. It may be that my view is coloured by the fact that in this city we have adopted o-m-o. We are giving a better service now and we did two years ago. The complaint letters are very much fewer than before we introduced o-m-o. We shall be 50 per cent converted within the next four weeks, which is a fairly high percentage. I do not think that we shall ever have 100 per cent o-m-o but I would like to see total one-manning on Sundays from every depot.
MH: What about double or single-deckers? RC: I have not got a closed mind on this. I was very highly impressed by the new Leyland B15 double-decker. It seems to me that probably for the first time on a double-decker they have done a job specification which will enable a double-decker to carry one-man passengers comfortably and very safely. The merit of double-deckers in a congested city is that they occupy less road space per passenger than a single-deck. But I have not got a closed mind. We ourselves have single-deckers here and we will continue to do so for many years to come.
MH: What about standees or seated passengers?
RC: We try to give a comfortable ride so I have never been in favour of standee buses. I can't think that at this time in my career that I am likely to change. A man who pays to ride on a bus is entitled to a seat.
MH: What about one or two entrances? RC: Well, I know the reference in the Road Research report and I have read the latest seminar reports but we have one and two-door experience in this city and undoubtedly two doors are the answer. They provide very much quicker loading and alighting times once the public are used to the centre exit. I can see no reason for converting to one-door only. There is no problem with door maintenance. Airoperated glider doors are now first-class units. those of today?
RC: Having seen the new Leyland, the new bus may be more boxy in appearance, may be higher powered, may have controlled acceleration and deceleration and controlled air changes but basically it will be little different in outward appearance. All in all it will be a better unit in which to ride.
MH: From what you have been saying this is an overriding consideration for you — to make bus travel more attractive?
RC: Yes — in this city we have already done this and our passenger recession — 0.86 per cent — is probably lower than anywhere else in the country. In fact in the current year we now have a "plus" figure.
The latest available figure from Glasgow shows a 5.6 per cent recession —MB'.] MH: Do you put that remarkable achievement down to any one thing?
RC: Better service. We are giving a better service now and we are operating more mileage (750,000 miles more, in fact). Also our services are now reliable. Our buying policy — which I would hope to perpetuate wherever I go — is to buy annually without fail.
MH: What measures can traffic authorities usefully take to aid buses?
RC: We want many bus lanes, contra-flow lanes and priority turning for buses too. We have been pressing for these for years. Short lengths of exclusive road for buses only can also be useful.
MH: What emphasis do you place on the value of research? The other PTEs all seem to be spending quite heavily in this field.
RC: I think the PTEs should pool their resources. No PTE should embark on research that is likely to be overlapped by someone else. There has got to be a sensible approach to research. Findings by one PTE should be shared among the others.
MH: Do you think in that case that there should be a committee of directors-general? RC: This is inevitable. It is already known as The Club and I have received a very warm welcome to it. If political thinking stays as it is there can only be two more PTAs, can there not? The seven directors-general will undoubtedly play a very important part of future of public transport in this country.
MH: Yes, they may one day be operating more buses than the National Bus Company.
RC: Oh, indeed — I think that is inevitable. Incidentally, I feel I should point out that I think it is important that the PTE remains a member of the Association of Public Passenger Transport Operators. Their committees are now excellent. Though we can doubtless lend them valuable support there is a lot to be gained too.
MH: Finally, Mr Cox, could you list your present priorities in respect of your new post?
RC: Yes. The first thing, clearly, is to get the other executive directors appointed. My first meeting with the full PTA should be on February 2 and that item should be on the agenda. When the PTE is actually in being then finance will probably be our first problem. I don't think the PTA will be able to subsidize the citizens of Glasgow foft much longer at the present rate of deficit.