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IN PARLIAMENT
Road and Rail Bill Proceedings Resumed
By Our Special Parliamentary Correspondent
Discretion to Grant or Refuse Licences.
WHEN the Standing Committee on the Road and Rail Traffic Bill met after the Whitsun recess, consideration was given to Clause 6, relating to the discretion of the licensing authorities to grant or refuse licences. Sir Basil Peto moved an amendment giving the licensing authorities full discretion to grant A licences for only a particular area or for certain classes of goods. The authorities, he said, might decide that licences could be granted for a certain number of vehicles if this limitation were made possible.
Mr. Stanley, Minister of Transport, said the amendment was intended to raise the whole question of the division of function as between road and rail, and sooner or later a division of that kind was bound to come, leaving the various forms of transport to deal with those goods for which they were best suited.
The amendment did not follow out the recommendations Of the Salter Cominittee, which had in view the possibility that, at some time or other, the Minister of Transport should have the power to prohibit the carriage of certain goods either altogether; or for more than a certain distance, by road. The amendment would simply give to the licensing authority a power to exercise in respect of A licences the same discretion in imposing conditions as was given in the case of 33 licences.
It was impossible to do this, as there would be no power to control the discretion of the licensing authorities in trying to impose general prohibitions on various types of goods. The general haulage business could not be carried on under these conditions, and the Salter Report recognized that the licensing authorities could not be tied down to areas or to limitations of distance.
He intended, at the earliest possible moment, to follow the advice of the Salter Committee with regard to the point which Sir B. Peto had in mind, which was to submit this matter to the Transport Advisory Council for its thorough investigation and report. The ameedment was, by leave, withdrawn. Bad
Reasons for Refusal.
MR. PARKINSON moved a proviso that when application is refused,. the licensing authority shall, on request by the applicant, state the grounds foe such refusal. Sir G. Rentoul spoke in favour of the amendment, which, he said, was supported by the Association of Chambers of Commerce and by road interests who had experience of the working of the Road Traffic Act.
Mr. Stanley said that they did not want an applicant to go away with a sense of grievance, but the amendment, he feared, would not attain the desired object if they were to make it a statutory requirement for the authorities, in every case, to give reasons in writing for their rejection or variation of an application.
As soon as a notice of appeal was lodged, it was essential that the applicant should have a proper statement of the grounds upon which his application had been refused. On Clause 13, he thought he would be able to satisfy members that, by regulation, it would be possible for him to provide for that Practice to be followed.
Captain Strickland said that a man should not have to go blindly to an appeal when, perhaps, it might he a hopeless case for him. The more humble the man, the more necessary would it be for him to consult a lawyer.
Mr. Stanley pointed out that the only formality and expense necessary would be to put a 1/cl. stamp upon a letter add reseed to the Minister of Transport, saying that he wished to lodge an appeal. His objection to the amendment was that, instead of giving an applicant more information than he would ordinarily obtain, it would tend to take something away from him. The amendment was rejected by 23 votes to 12,
Interests of Trade.
AN amendment was moved by Mr. C. Davies requiring the licensing authority, in exercising his discretion, to be satisfied that the interests of the public and of trade and industry generally will not be adversely affected by the grant or refusal of an application
for an A licence. He said that be was anxious that the interests of the public and not those of the road or rail concerns should receive first consideration.
Mr. Stanley said that the Government had rejected the principle behind the amendment because it thought that in the case of goods licences, it would impose an intolerable onus upon the man who had to make the application. 'The applicant would have to satisfy the Commissioner, before he obtained his licence, that the application was advantageous from the point of view of "the needs of trade and inrInstey for the maintenance and development of *sufficient transport services for the rapid and convenient collection," etc.
The Government fell back, therefore, on the second alternative of putting the onus on the objector, rather than on the applicant, to say that adequate facilities already existed.
Commissioners and Public Interest.
TN spite of what the Minister had isaid, argued Sir J. Sandeman Allen, the broad principle should be laid down that the licensing authorities should have in mind the interests of the public and of traffic.
After further discussion, Mr. Stanley said that if, as it appeared, the general wish of the Committee was that some directions iii the public interests should be given to the licensing authority, even if it should entail some greater burden on the applicant, he was not prepared to stand up against that view. He would consider, before the Report stage, werde which might introduce as a consideration for the licensing authority the question of the needs of trade and industry and the matter of transport facilities.
He must warn them, however, that he was not sure that it would he possible to find the formal words that would not have some effect of transferring the onus to the applicant. The amendment was then withdrawn.
An amendment was agreed to, on the motion of Colonel Headlam, the Parliamentary Secretary, requiring the licensing authority to have regard to the extent to which the applicant is authorized to use goods vehicles under an existing licence of the same class. This carries out the undertaking previously given by Mr. Stanley that there should be a bias in fs.vour of existing holders of licences, who applied for renewals, as against new applicants.
" Suitability" of Applicant.
AN amendment to require the authority to have regard to "the suitability," as well as the previous conduct, of the applicant, was negatived.
Another Government amendment carrying out a previous pledge with regard to B licences requires the Commissioner to have regard to the extent to which the applicant is authorized under an existing licence of the same class to use vehicles for the carriage of goods for hire or reward. The clause was then agreed to.
Committee's Eighth Sitting.
AT the next (eighth) sitting of the Committee, on Clause 7, a verbal alteration was made in sub-section 2, to make it clear that the only vehicles which could be included in a computation of aggregate weight, so as to confer the right of an applicant to obtain a licence, are those which are in the applicant's own possession or in his possession on a hire-purchase scheme. The vehicles which he acquires subsequently on a hire-purchase arrangement would not be included.
Conditions of Licences.
CLAUSE contains conditions of ' licences, and Mr.'Holdsworth moved to delete the condition " that the authorized vehicles are .maintained in a 'fit and serviceable condition." He said everybody recognized that there shpuld be no vehicle on the road which was not in a fit and serviceable condition, but that was already the law of the land. If a man sent out a vehicle which was not in a fit condition, and if there was an accident, he could be taken before the Courts and fined. Under this Bill, they were taking away the power from the Courts and handing it over to a set of examiners.
Such figures as he had been able to obtain did not provefl that accidents on the road were .caused by vehicles which were mechanically unfit. He protested against the hampering of business by inspectors, and their powers to stop Vehicles, enter premises and order lorries to be taken off the roads.
••Mr. Stanley said this amendment was one of a series seeking to leave out all the licence conditions which he might describe as of a security character. The amendments would wreck one of the principal objects of the Bill. Nearly all the matters were provided for by the law, but he believed that the mere liability to prosecution and fine had proved ineffective to obtain their observance. He could not, therefore, accept the amendment, which, after some discussion, was negatived.
Fitness Conditions and Road Traffic Act.
0 IR, G. RENTOUL moved an amendI-.. merit that the maintenance in a fit and serviceable condition should be "in accordance with regulations made under the Road Traffic Act, 1930, and for the time being in force in so far as the same relate to the construct-1On and use of goods vehicles."
Mr. Stanley pointed out that those regulations under the Road Traffic Act dealt with other requirements which could not be called safety requirements. It was felt that there should be attached as conditions of the licence, infringement of which would make pbssible the revocation of a licence, only those dealing with mechanical defects which might really lead to danger on the roads.
The acceptance of the amendment would have the effect of increasing the burden of the licence holder by making a breach of any one of the multitudinous, and, in some cases, not very inmortant, regulations a possible cause for the suspension of the licence. The amendment was withdrawn.
Mr. Boyce moved that one of the conditions should be compliance with provisions relating to " weight, laden and unladen."
Mr. Stanley accepted the amendment, as he thought it might bring home more definitely the conditions in the Clause. The amendment was agreed to. A discussion was initiated by Mr. Parkinson on an amendment to apply to all licences the sub-section 2, which says that it shall be a condition of every A and B licence that section 93 of the Road Traffic Act is complied with. He pointed out that Section 93 imposed a fair-wage clause on all pas senger-vehicle operators, and the Bill proposed a similar condition on holders of A and B licences. It ;vas felt, how ever, that C licences ought to be in cluded, because they represented the largest section of the licence holders. The amendment was still under discussion when the Committee adjourned.
Fair Wages and C Licences. A T the next meeting of the Corn-, 1-1.mittee, on Tuesday last, discussion was eontinned on Mr. Parkinson's amendment. Sir G. lientout regarded the amendment as unenforceable and thought it would only excite friction. Mr. G. Hall said that the Labour 'members were prepared to admit that a case for exemption from the application of a fair-Wages clause could be made out for those C-licence holders who owned fewer than three vehicles. They were prepared to withdraw the ameadment in favour of a later amendment to that effect.
Mr. Stanley's View.
IL STANLRY said that if they lificould be assured of the removal of the practical difficulties, every member of the Committee would be in favour of the principle of the amendment. That was the difficulty of the small man whose employee was not exclusively a transport worker, but was engaged in other jobs. That could be remedied by the later amendment.
The second difficulty was the effect which the amendment might have on the principle and the method of collective bargaining in certain industries. Ile had been in communication with most of the great industries concerned, and in all cases their replies indicated dissent from the amendment.
He proposed to have a frankl-talk with those industries to see if they could not, by the amendment, if necessary, of Clause 25, remove the sincere fears they felt as to the effect on collective bargainingof the amendment now before the Committee.
On this understanding the amendment was withdrawn, and the later amendment to exempt owners of fewer than three vehicles was not proceeded with.
An amendment to omit the proviso that it shall be a condition of the granting of a B licence that the vehiclea shall be used only in a specified locality was negatived.
On the motion of Cu]. HeadIatn, the word "district" was substituted for the word "locality," and another amendment was accepted by the Committee to include in the conditions of thesgranting of a licence that the goods to he carried shall be "carried only for specified persons."
Clause 8, as amended, was agreed to, as well as Clause 9 dealing with the "variation of licence."