Twelve Years' Progress in the Application oi Commercial Motors.
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4
If you've noticed an error in this article please click here to report it so we can fix it.
Discussion on the R.A.C. Paper.
The CHAIRMAN (Sir David Salomons9 said that the; mid heard a most interesting paper, and one which he thought they would all admit must have involved a very large ennount of labour on the part of the lecturer, having regard to all the taeIs which he had ' ;eot together. It did not mean that Mr. Shrapnell Smith had sat down and taken a few figures from newspapers, but that he must have devoted his whole life to the work. He could reineinhtir Mr. Shrapnel' Smith when he was quite a young man, in 1896; he was most active anti energetic in the first .Lbkrpool Competition of 0498, and thereafter. In fact, it was due to hint, not only that it was a success, but that it had taken place at all. One vehicle at that first competition was driven by a gentleman who was there that night, namely, Mr. Critehley; it performed miracles according to the views of those days. If they examined the steam engines of George Stephenson, they would find that the steam engine adhered to a certain form for many years, and, if they compared it with the locomotive of the present day, they would see that there were tall many improvements, and that the principle to-day was practically what it was then. The chief modifications were due to tlie popularity of the railways to-day. So it was with the motorcar. The first car that he had was a little Peugeot, the engine being supplied by Panhard et Levassor. If they took the general type of engine of the present day, they would find that there was practically no change, except that the parts were better made and stronger, and that the fittings were made more to gauge, so that repairs could be carried out more expeditiously and cheaply. It was wonderful to think that, while they had the same type of car, yet results had improved so considerably, owing to more time and care having been given to its manufacture. There had hem) 12 years' lyork, and a great deal of money had been lost by those who entered into the movement in its earlier days. It was a common experience of pioneers who put their money into these things, very often under the influence of company promoters.
Mr. P0RTI1FJM agreed with all that the Chairman had said about Mr. Shrapnel' Smith's paper. There was, however, one omission, which was the crux of the whole position. If they referred to the very interesting table of returns front owners of commercial motors, they would see that Mr. Shrapnel' Smith stated there that the total number of commercial vehicles for which he had returns was T2o3. That was only about 11 per cent, of the total number of horse vehicles in the country. It was all very well to talk about the lost mileage of one motor vehicle, but what they had to consider—and it was entirely a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence was whether those vehicles were going to be adopted, and that depended on the cost per ton per mile of the self-propelled vehicle as compared with the cost of the horse-drawn vehicle. He had recently had occasion to go into the question of the amalgamation of a large French carrying business with a very large London carrying business, and they both said the same thing. The French business two years ago spent L;25,000 on self-propelled vehicles, and had, unfortunately, to scrap the lot, The London company had not had quite the same experience, but it had had to scrap a few, and it had a few which it used only for certain purposes, Both businesses said the same thing, namely, that for interurban traffic the cost per ton-mile even of the best self-propelled vehicle could not compare with the cost per ton-mile of the horse-drawn vehicle, making proper allowances for depreciation in both cases. The only advantage was in pointto-point traffic over long distances without stops. That was to say, if they had a long run straight through, the selfpropelled vehicle paid, but it did not pay for running about town. He was afraid, therefore, they would not make much progress in replacing the one and a half million horse-drawn vehicles until they could get to a point where the cost per tollmile of the self-propelled vehicle was less than that of the horse-drawn vehicle. If Mr. Shrapnell Smith could give any figures to contradict his statement, he would be much obliged. MI. J. S. CRITCHLEA, NI.I.Mech.E., said that they were al bloomed to Mr. Shrapnell Smith for presenting them ag,ah with one of his concise papers, and for bringing before theii notice %Try important lacts connected with motor traffic They all recognised Mr. Smith's ability in drawing up statis tics. At the time of the: Liverpeiol Trials, he (the speaker) wm in close touch with the judges and with Mr. Shrapnel] Smith They might rest assured that any figures Mr. Smith pit before them were reliable. The paper omitted one importan, trial, which was the first real trial* of heavy vehicles, namely that of the Royal .1gricultural Society in ISO. He was re.
sponsible in those trials for a one-ton vehicle. Having looked into the figures of that trial, he had found that the\ compared x-ery favourably with the. figures of the vehicle which ran in the R.A.C. Trial of 1907. The consumption of petrol per ton-mile in 1898 was practically the same as that in 1907. He could not agree with Mr. Smith that the benefit of trials was exhausted. Competitions, he thought, were necessary, so that they could get more reliable data in con. nection with fuel consumption and wear and tear of tires, The question of petrol consumption was one of great import. ance; fractions of a penny made all the difference between 4, profit and a loss. Trials of carburetters, and of engines fitteei with paraffin vaporisers, etc., would be an advantage to the users of the commercial motor. Tires were an expensive item ; that was where a good deal of improvement was still necessary. Many years ago, Nlr. Burford and he started the first motor service between Liverpool and Manchester, and it was considered quite an achievement in those days to be able to carry 30 cwt. of mails between those two cities. The experience was very beneficial; he did not think that the paying results were of any great importance, but the machine then was practically the pioneer of the present London motor omnibus. As to the question of horse-drawn vehicles as compared with motors, some years ago he went into the figures of the North-Eastern and Nlidland Railway Companies, and he still had the data in his possession_ The conclusion he came to then was that it appeared absolutely impossible for the motor vehicle to compare with the horse-drawn van for the ordinary door-to-door collection and delivery services. The cost of the delivery van, with two horses and a man and a boy, delivering parcels up to ahout Ts cwt., amounted in a week to not more than ,„{,:3 55. He did not think that it would be possible to run a motor vehicle at anything like that figure. He thought that they were all agreed that for long journeys there was a decided advantage in connection with the motor vehicle. Another phase to be considered was the time taken for the delivery of gocxls. In delivering goods in a city like Manchester, there was the difficulty that it was impossible, with a 3-ton or 4-ton load, to get to the warehouses, as when they got to the city there was a siring of horse-drawn vehicles in front of them, and it would be impossible to deliver the load for three or four hours. The time taken in collection and delivery made it, therefore, impossible to run those vans at anything like a profit. It was very interesting to see the great development of the motormail service, and he thought they must look forward to a considerable increase in the use of the motor principle for that purpose. As to cutting rates, they would always have to face that sort of thing in business. Competition was always with them, and contracts would naturally sQ to the firm that could do the work at the cheapest price.
Mr. H. G. BURFORD, 'AI.I.Mech.E., NI.I.A.E., agreed with the last speaker that they were indebted to Mr. Shrapnell Smith for the concise farts he had given to them. He had been closely associated with the movement for the last eight or nine years, and remembered the trials at Liverpool. Two 2-ton vehicles were run there on petrol, and the whole trade laughed at the entrant; but, before they had been running two days, they had the whole of England interested in them, and the vehicles which ran had not been beaten since. The results were a 3o-rwit. toad with a petrol consumption of 0-].i enile: to the gallon. There had been no advance in anything like proportion on the petrol consumption side of the question, such as they had had in numbers of vehicles. Motor vehicles had multiplied, and, he frankly admitted, very much in a large number of cases to the detriment of the business, and to the pulling back of the whole motor mover ten;. Any business which developed, as had the motor onmibus business in London, would always lead to two or three years of stagnation. Booms of such a kind in an industry like that must lead to disaster. They had seen that, and the commercial motor movement was now suffering trom the boom made in London. Firms rushed in and manufactured machim s which could not possibly be a success. The whole question of permaneet advance was one of steady progress and sat:sfactory results, :aid serious application to the work and difficulties which they had to meet. As to the Liverpool mail service, that was an undertaking by Mr. Critchley•and himself, who entered into it in those days and gained invaluable experience : the Liverpool Postmaster was an enthusiast, and after
tihr speaker) had shown hint one of the 2-ton machines, which had made such wortderful performances durng the trials, the Postmaster suggested that he (the speaker)
give th( vehicle a trial to carry. the mails front Liverpool to Southpon. After that, the outcome of the trial w aa permanent contract to carry mails between Liverpool .:111(1 Marl
arid on a memorable night the vehicle was tken to Liverpool and Manchester to perform the work, but the contractors did not believe they could possibly do it, and so they
ran --for safety's sake-a three-horse vehicle behind the motor. (Laughter.) The contractors thought th::1 a motor vehicle could not go so fast as the horses; as a 'natter of fact, they had practically to gallop the whole vs-;., in order to keep up with the motorvan. Ile questioned the value of ce.mmeicial vehicle trials. similar, to those they Itad had last year. That subject could be approached front sevi-ral standpoin-e. .1.z, far as the business value of the Trials was concerned. he thought that they were an absolute failure. The condition,: under which they were carried out were successful as a dentonstration of what Illotor transport etarld accomplish, but the financial conditions of the country hind absolutely discounted and put aside any value which they might otherwise have had. Any facts they might e-tablish like that, unless the people were ripe to take it up, must be ealueless. As to the Trials, he had spent six vt.r■ pleasant weeks with the Secretary of the Royal Automobile Club • (taughter)---but, from the business point of view, he most be candid and sayLa. h t ii ere absOlulciv 1.v:Lbout D.-zUlt. They nllusl have cost the trade -(30,,xxt.or /:40,000, merely to prove to the British public that the vehicles could carry a certain load over a certain distance in a certain time : the people had not got the money to but Iln•
rita
hi and that was the most important thing for him. From tht, technical standpoint, the Trials were very successful, and the manufacturers learnt many things; the experienco. g.,;61ted from them would be of immense value, which would be ultimately to the benefit of I he users. On the question of mail service, there wn.',; no doubt I hat, with proper supervision, and if done regularly, consc:entiously, and systollatiCally, the mail service could be run as consistently as any other mechanical work done for the public. The fig-tires put before them that night could be verified at the Post Office at any time, and were absolutely reliable. If these performances could be made over such country as that between London and Hastings, which was a very hilly and difficult road, the mail service of the whole country could be carried on satisfactorily. The cab services were being carried on like the motor omnibus boom. He had-no faith in them. They were multiplying, but, in the speaker's opinion. it was at the expense of the shareholders. Owing to this boom, there would be more harm done than a steady growth could do good. As far as he was person:711y concerned is an engineer, he believed the motor trade was beyond any other trade in the way it had been exploited by the company promoter, and a large share of the work which engineers were doing 1.0 advance the science was being ruined by company promotion, and by the greed of making fortunes in a very short time. As to the goods transit, he was quite of opinion—and he did not think that anyone of experience would differ—that the motor vehicle of 75 cwt. to 7 ton could not work at the same cost as a horse and van purely on town service. In his opinion, it was impossible to make any comparison between the two. With a machine like that referred to, and a hie-hly-skilled Man to operate it, the old-fashioned and obsolete way of collecting goods and delivery of sante, did not permit the modern machine to justify itself, and it would not be compared with the horse van. They hoped that the average human being was getting more intelligent, and would not work tram 5 a.m. until 70.30 p.m. for r5s. a week, as LlIaL was iNhat the drivers of horse vans did. That was little better than slavery. If motor vehicles were to be compared with horse vans, let those people who tried that difficult task set their houses in order, so that things might be
compared properly and equitably. For instance, railway companies would send out a 2-ton wagon to a big warehouse, and let it wait four or live hours for a load ; motor
vehicles could not work under those conditions. Where parcels could be collected and delivered under modern conditions, there motor vehicles could compare favourably with horse traffic. He had had two years' experience of running vehicles under contract; he could show anyone interested the result of running vehicles capable of carrying 4,tons, and he. suggested that the cost would be verv near the figure given by Mr. Shrapnell Smith. It was beyond question that the vehicle carrying 3 tons about 6o miles a day could carry the load at about rid. to 9d. per car-mile run, and that included .every proper charge. That compared favourably with any horse vehicle ever put on the road.
Mr. GEoRm-: PCM.I.ARD (London Road Car Company) said that, from the lorry and van point of view, he knew nothing ahout the subject. It was true that he had run motor omnibuses for about four years; he agreed that the whole thing was rushed very badly, and that the men who had to try to run those vehicles knew it to their sorrow, as the shareholders did to theirs. He was pleased to think, however, that the dark days were more or less over. The figure given by Mr. Shrapnel] Smith was the figure at which the motor omnibus was now being run. To-day Ihey were running r3o,000 miles per week with the loss of only .65 per cent. He did not think that that could be beaten. With regard to the cost, there was, in his opinion, a chance of its coming down, ;Ls to the (6xpenst. of both petrol and tires and mechanical repairs.
The GlIA112.5,1AN said that tell or twelve years ago, which was a long time after the introduction of railways, the question was raised is to the breakdown of locomotives. Ono company in the North of England had the largest number of breakdowns in the United Kingdom—probable double of that of any other company. The reason was that they carried an immense amount of coal traffic, and the breakdowns appeared to be due 10 the burning of tubes. After all the years the railways had been running, the figure of loss for that company was given at .4 per cent., and for roost companies about .1 per cent. The figures for motor
vehicles, after such a few years, compared favourably with those of locomotives after all their long experience.
Mr. E. Sllaapant.t. SMITH' in reply, thanked those present for their kind reception of his Paper and for their references to his work. The Chairman had mentioned the early trials of locomotives, when Stephenson won the prize in the competition of 1829. It was very interesting to recall the fact that that competition at Rainhill was a race, and that the locomotives ran side by side on parallel sets of rails. If railway development was furthered by a race, why not that of the motor vehicle? As to railway breakdowns, one must look at those things from the standpoint of analogy. He had had great difficulty in getting access to the figures of the early days of railways, but he eventually found them in the Picton Library at Liverpool. The returns of those early years would have appalled anybody, and were worse than anything through which motor vehicles had passed. The early days of electric tramway enterprise were also by no means encouraging. They might be sure, therefore, that the heavy motor industry would pull through, when they considered the facts and figures mentioned by some of the speakers that night. The grOwth of the industry had been slow and disappointing to many, and it Was hard to realise that after twelve years so little had been done. Mr. Portheim had ventured two guesses at the number of horse vehicles in this country; the first was a quarter of a million, and the second was one and a half million. In an article in 1905 he ([he speaker) had embodied some figures as to the number of commercial vehicles (for horse draught) in the United Kingdom in xgo4 ; the number was approximately one million. To-day there were 2,5o5) motorcabs in London, and i,too motor omnibuses; and in his Paper he had put down figures which accounted for 1,300 other motor vehicles. Those who would not give him any information must account for at least Soo more, and the cabs in other towns in the country must number zoo. Taking all those figures, they accounted for approximately 6,000. That was a numerical substitution of .6 per cent., though the motors largely did new work, and such a comparison was misleading. He should take Mr. Portheim's statement as to the experience of one of the two companies which amalgamated as a confession of misapplication. People who put motors to do the work of horses in house-to-house delivery in towns were putting them upon work for which for many years to come they could not be suited, The 5-ton wagon, for instance, cost 35. 6d, per working hour. In Manchester and Liverpool the average cost of a pair-horse lom, was from is. 3d. to is. 6d. per working hour. If they wanted a vehicle to loiter outside a warehouse for four or five hours, that was a use to which no one would suggest a motor vehicle should be put. He thought that Mr. Portheim's suggestion that it could not pay was one which, under the circumstances, he endorsed; it could not be expected to do so. Certain companies were finding out good uses for
motor vehicles, such as point-to-point haulage and depot-toden& haulage, and they were quite satisfied.
Mr. Critchley had mentioned the Royal Agricultural Society's Trials, in June of t808, at Sutton Coldfiekl, after the first Liverpool Trials. The reason why he had not included them was that his dividincr line was the exclusion of any trial in which the scheduled mileage was less than too : the two runs in those Trials came to :;14J miles only, and
he had, therefore, not put them in. He well remembered them, and the excellent work done by certain vans. As to trials being no longer wanted, it was, of course, merely his opinion. It had been said that they were not wanted from the point of view of the industry, nor from that of the trade of the country. At the moment there was a great depression throughout, the country, sych as in the shipping and the cotton industries, and, therefore, the trials might be blamed for many things connected with other subjects, such as politics, which he could not discuss there. As to the Liverpool-Manchester mail service, there were many funny incidents connected with it, besides the one about the threehorse van. There were, for instance, many complaints from the villagers about the infernal row which the vehicles made, and some of the inhabitants of Warrington got op a petition against them. Those vehicles ran on. iron tires, and one could not get in those days rubber tires for a 1-1-ton load. For a long time the tires cost ad, and 5d. per mile; now they could get manufacturers to contract for the tires of motor omnibuses at iad. per mile in London, and in the country they could get contracts for a maximum of ad. a mile. It was noteworthy that a demand was made on rubber manufacturers for a certain class of tire, and that they produced it within a few years—subsequently to row.
Mr_ Burford gained a gold medal in Not, when he went down to Liverpool, and people said, " What extraordinary vehicle is this?" The vehicles went through the Trials in splendid style. As a result of those Trials, Mr. Burford got many more orders thanhe could execute. (Laughter and "hear, hear.") He (the speaker) differed from those who said that the business value of such Trials had been nil. If business were generally depressed noW, it would not he long before that passed away, and then, if any intending purchaser would only get hold of a copy of his Paper, anti would only concentrate his mind on the improving position in regard to lost mileage, he ventured to think that that fact alone must tend to create confidence and lead to the placing of orders. Therefore, the series of Trials in question could not be said to have been wasted. As to the cab business, there was no doubt that it was being overdone, and that they were going to have an aftermath similar to that which befell the motor omnibus people. Not only would competition lead to decreased receipts, but the cabs would have to wait longer on the rank, instead of, as last year, there being fights between people for a motorcab. The cabs were not now sought after so much. If the men had to stand five or six hours on the rank out of a seventeen-hour day, then, with all respect to those responsible for the finance of those companies, he thought it a great pity that such great dividends had been paid out in the first year, instead of .a reserve's being built up to meet the contingencies which were bound to occur within the next year or two.
In conclusion, Mr. Shrapnel] Smith said that he had received letters of regret for absence from Mr. Arthur Paterson, of Carter, Paterson and Company, and Mr. Nigel O. Walker, of Pickford's. Ile asked for a hearty vote of thanks to the Chairman, who had done such great service to the movement in its early days, and this was duly accorded.
The Chairman, in the course of a brief reply, remarked that the Paper and discussion would appeal to a very large audience when they appeared in nrint, and would unquestionably be read with very great interest.