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Z.eport Stage and Third Reading
A Full Account of the Three Days' Debate on the Report Stage of this Important Bill By Our Parliamentary Correspondent
THE report and third-reading stages of the Road and Rail Traffic Bill were completed in the House of Commons last Friday, and the Bill is row ready to be sent to the House of Lords. It will be considered by their lordships after the recess and thereafter passed into law.
On the report stage a new clause was inserted to the effect that the certifying officers to whom appeals will be made from the examiners will be those appointed under the Road Traffic Act of 1930. Under that Act they have all the powers of an examiner, and the new clause gives those officials the right to act as certifying officers under the present Bill.
Another new clause, which was agreed to, provides machinery for a review of agreed road charges and exceptional rates competing with coastwise shipping. Mr. Stanley explained that under the new clause it would be possible for the coastwise shipping industry to make representations to the Minister when it was felt that any rate, or rates, whether exceptional rates or the new agreed charges, placed coastal carriers at an undue or unfair disadvantage, or were inadequate having regard to the cost of affording the service in respect of which they were made.
If a complaint was one which, in the national interests, should be investigated, then it would be possible through him for the complaint to go to the Railway Rates Tribunal for consideration. For the purpose of these applications, there would be added to the tribunal someone with special
knowledge of the machinery of the coastwise shipping trade.•There would thus be four members of the tribunal, and
the independent chairman would be given a casting vote.
. The amendment providing that the reference to hours for rest for drivers in Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, should be deemed to mean hours for rest away from the vehicle, which was discussed in Committee, was again brought up as a new clause by Mr. T. Smith.
The Minister said the thing to do was not to amend the existing law, but to see that it was properly enforced. To withdraw a licence would help more than any provision such as those suggested. After discussion he promised to consider whether, in the House of Lords, an amendment could be made securing that a driver should have rest time beyond the control of his employer. Without pledging himself, he Thoughtan amendment could be framed on those lines. Mr. Smith's clause was then withdrawn.
Licensing of Drivers.
Mr. George Hall moved a new clause, requiring that a driver of a goods vehicle should be licensed to drive, and that he should be over the age of 21, unless he was, during the six months immediately preceding January 1, 1933, regularly employed as a driver of a goods vehicle. The object of the clause, he said, was to secure a proper regulation of the industry and safeguard the interests of the public. The same principle, he said, had been in operation for some time in the case of road-passenger-vehicle workers.
Mr. Stanley asked the House to reject this clause, which was confined to one particular section of road transport, and did greaTt injustice in raising the age limit for the driving of a light van to 21 years. He was not shutting out the possibility in the near future of legislation which would go beyond this proposal in dealing with the whole problem. They were carrying out a careful analysis of the causes of fatal accidents. The interim period of six months was completed at the end of June, and he hoped before long to publish some results of that period. He felt, however, that no really valuable results could be obtained in any. less period than a year. At the end of this year lie would examine the classification of these accidents, and would then be able to find out if any substantial proportion arose from the sort of mistakes on the part of drivers which could be corrected by making them pass a test. The clause was rejected by 268 votes to 38.
Mr. Stanley moved as an addition to Clause I, subsection (3) (which sets forth the exemptions from "a carrying of the goods for hire or reward "), the following paragraphs :— " (d) the carriage of goods in a vehicle in respect of which a licence has been taken out by a manufacturer or
dealer under section 9 of the Roads Act, 1920, or by a repairer under section 15 of the Finance Act, 1922, in accordance with the regulations applicable to that licence ;
" (e) the carriage of goods in a vehicle by a manufacturer, agent, or dealer whilst the vehicle is being used by him for demonstration purposes."
The amendment was agreed to.
Government Vehicles, Sir G. Rentoul moved to bring goods vehicles used by Government departments under the licensing conditions of Part 1, by which they would be required to have C licences. He thought it important that regulations as to overloading, hours of labour, and so forth, should apply to vehicles in the Government service as well as to other vehicles privately owned or owned by local authorities.
Colonel Headlam pointed out that this subject wasdiscussed in Committee, and the Government could not see their way to put this obligation upon the Crown, as serious difficulties would arise in thepublic service. The use of such vehicles, he pointed out, was of necessity subject to the fair wages conditions, which was the principal matter of concern in this connection. After discussion the amendment was negatived. Another amendment which was agreed to on the motion of Colonel Headlam included sin the exemption from the licensing provisions of the Bill the trailer which is drawn by an agricultural vehicle, always supposing that the trailer is used subject to conditions similar to those that apply to the vehicle drawing it.
An amendment to exempt a vehicle constructed for the carriage of not more than seven passengers and adapted or equipped for the carriage of samples of goods by a commercial traveller or agent, when the weight of the goods does not exceed 3 cwt., was, after discussion withdrawn, Colonel Headlam pointing out that the amendment was unnecessary. He said that if a private car was utilized for the purposes of a commercial traveller it was licensed under the horse-power class, unless the extent of the adaptation would causeit to fall within the definition of a goods vehicle. It was a question of fact that had to be decided in each in stance.
The Attorney-General moved an amendment exempting contractors, acting in pursuance of a contract with the Crown for the carriage of goods for public purposes, from the necessity of complying with the licensing provision, but after discussion Mr. Stanley withdrew the amendment on the understanding that if he could not find narrower words to cover the point he would not be precluded from moving the same amendment in the House of Lords. A provision was inserted to exempt the removal of goods from a disabled vehicle to a place of safety. It would be possible, the Minister said, for a C-licence holder to do a bit of salvage work of that kind, even for money, without bringing himself into the ambit of the A-licence holder. Mr. A. Roberts moved to exempt from Clause 2 such number and description of motor vehicles to be designated "reserve vehicles" as is specified in the licence, so that, in case of accident or withdrawal for repair, a reserve vehicle might be used instead of the authorized vehicle. This matter had been discussed in Committee, and Colonel Headlara pointed out that the Ministry believed that every efficient operator would carry a reserve of vehicles to meet a contingency. The licensing authorities would have this in mind when hearing applications for licences. The amendment was, therefore, not required, and was negatived.
Under Clause 5 information bas to be given to the licensing authority as to particulars of any financial interest or right which the applicant has in the business of any other person who provides facilities for the transport of goods for hire or reward within the area of the licensing authority. Colonel Headhun moved the omission of this subparagraph, and it was agreed to.
In Clause 6, sub-section (2) was redrafted, and the following substituted for the existing sub-section :—
" (2) The licensing authority in exercising his discretion shall have regard primarily to the interests of the' public generally, including those of persons requiring, as well as those of per-sous providing, facilities for transport and, in particular, shall have regard In the case of an application for an A ' licence or for a 'B ' licence,—
(a) where the applicant is the holder of an existing licence of the same class, to the extent to which he is authorized to use goods vehicles thereunder for the carriage of goods for hire or reward.; (b) to the previous conduct of the applicant in the capacity of a carrier of goods; (c) to the number and type of vehicles proposed to be used under the licence; and, in the case of an application for a 'B ' licence, also to the extent to which the applicant intends that the vehicles proposed to be used under the licence shall be used for the carriage of goods for hire or reward.'
Mr. Stanley, in accepting an amendment to Clause 6, requiring the licensing authority, if requested by the applicant, to state reasons for refusal to grant a licence or for granting a licence which differs from the licence applied for, or imposes conditions to which the applicant does not agree, said he understood the desire was to enable the applicant to decide whether he wanted to appeal, and from that point of view the amendment was clearly of benefit to him. The amendment was agreed to.
As in Committee, a proposal by Sir A. Steel-Maitland, that an application for the renewal of an existing licence should not be refused except on grounds on which the licence may be suspended or revoked, was resisted by the Minister, and negatived. iAnother proposal previously discussed in Committee, to allow a haulier who had been using horses to replace them by motor vehicles and to be certain of getting licences for a sufficient number to enable him to carry on the business he was doing with horse-drawn vehicles, was withdrawn after a dismission, in which Colonel Headlam said that a licensing authority would certainly take into account any claim that could be substantiated by an operator in process of changing over from horse-drawn vehicles to motor vehicles, but it could not be admitted that it was right to impose a definite requirement on the licensing authority as was suggested In the amendment.
Fair Wages Clause.
The House discussed at some length another proposal previously made in Committee, whereby the Fair Wages Clause would apply to the three classes of licence, instead of only to A and B licences. Mr. Stanley repeated that, however desirable the amendment might be in theory, he was afraid it was wholly impracticable inoperation. At this point the House adjourned the consideration of the Bill, and when it resumed the following day (Thursday), Mr. Stanley said he had received a communication from Mr. Bevan on the question involved, and he had arranged, therefore, to receive a deputation the followirig week. Without making pledges, if new facts were put before him, he would again submit the subject to Parliament in the other House. The amendment was then withdrawn.
On the motion of Mr. Stanley, Clause 10 was altered so as to give discretion to the licensing authority in the matter of transfering a licence to a man who had purchased another man's vehicle that had been licensed.
A long discussion took place on an amendment, moved by Sir G. Rentoul, to Cleuse 10, providing that inquiries which the licensing authority might deem necessary for the proper exercise of his functions under the Act shall be held in public.
Mr. Stanley said they wanted applicants to get the fairest possible deal and in the cheapest way, because the whole expense of the licensing scheme would be borne by the licence holders themselves. Therefore, he considered it right that , the licensing authorities. should retain the right to sit in
'private if they liked. If things were left as they were the applicant would suffer nothing, as in the vast majority of cases inquiries would be held in public. In another place, he promised, he would have inserted words to put it beyond the possibility of doubt that :those inquiries might be held in public. The amendment was defeated by 39 votes to 32.
In Clause 11, which deals with the power to revoke or suspend licences, a proviso was inserted by the Government. and agreed to, allowing the licensing authority to hold a public inquiry if the holder a the licence requested him so to do before revoking or suspending a licence.
Another amendment, which was agreed to, exempted travelling showmen from the obligation to keep certain records.
Discussion was repeated upon the proposal in the Bill to permit application for a variation of times for drivers' duty to be made by either the employees' represetitatives or the employers' representatives, instead of, as previously provided, by the two organizations jointly. Mr. T. Smith moved to return to the terms of ,Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act,. 1930, and thus preserve the joint application, . but his amendment was negatived by 168 votes to 30. '
Another amendment, to provide that organizations which made application to the Minister of Labour should be national organizations, also was defeated by 128 votes to 34.
Mr. Stanley moved an amendment to provide that the provision SS to hours should apply not only to the driver of a goods vehicle, but also to an attendant employed to assist the driver in the driving or control of the vehicle. Mr. Parkinson remarked that this would strengthen the Bill, and the amendment was agreed to.
Transport Advisory Council.
It was agreed, on a motion of Mr. Parkinson, that the representatives of the interests of labour on the Transport Advisory Council should be appointed after consultation with the Minister of Labour.
,The first schedule was then remodelled, and the following
constitution agreed to:—
"Local authorities in England and Wales ... 4
Local authorities in Scotland ...... 2 Users of mechanically propelled vehicles .............5
Users of horses and horse-drawn vehicles ... ... 1 Users of roads other than as above mentioned—
Canals (other than canals owned or controlled by a railway Coastwise shipping ... ... • ... Harbours and docks (other than harbours and docks owned or controlled by a railway company) ... ... 1 Labour Trading interests agiiCulture) ... 5 "
Mr. Stanley explained that he had increased the representation of the local authorities in England and Wales from three to four members, which would provide a representative for the great municipalities, a representative for the county councils, one for the rural district councils, and one for the urban district councils. The representation for Scotland wasincreased from one to two members. • The representatives of the users of roads were increased from one to two and split up betweenpedestrians and pedal cyclists. The representative of canals, harbours and docks, would be representative of undertakings. not owned or controlled by railways. He had given another representative to labour, making their representation three. Trading interests, including agriculture, had been increased from four to five.
An amendment to add one .representative'ef the Co-operative Union was withdrawn after the Minister indicated that, in apPointing representatives of trading interests, he would not overlook consultation with the Co-operative Union.
An amendment was moved by Mr. MeKeag to give two representatives to operators of public service vehicles licensed under the. Road Traffic Act, 1930, but Colonel Headlana said the proposal could not be accepted as it would be unfair. The amendment was negatived.
Sir A. Steel-Maitland endeavoured to raise the representation of users of mechanically propelled vehicles to six instead of five, hut his amendment was negatived.
Among other proposals to add to the Advisory Council was n25 one that the number of labour representatives should be five instead of three. This proposal was defeated by 204 votes to 32.
The new composition of the Advisory Council was then agreed to. This completed the consideration of the Bill on Report.
Colonel Headlam then moved that the Bill be read a third time. He gave a review of the principal alterations that had been made in the Bill, assuring the House that, in the opinion of the Government, the amended Bill was an improvement upon that which was originally introduced. Mr. G. Hall moved that "the House declines to pass a Bill for regulating road and rail transport which shows insufficient regard for public safety, owing to its failure to protect adequately working conditions and which fails to recognize the urgent necessity for a national co-ordinated system of transport." He said he would have liked to have seen the Bill made much more worthy of the Minister's efforts. It was after all, he said, a patch on an over-patched coat. They were simply dealing with traffic— road, rail and coastwise—in a piecemeal fashion. The Bill might be regarded as a thorough testimony to the need for national co-ordination of transport services throughout the country.
In the further course of the discussion, Captain Strickland declared that the Bill struck a very definite blow at an extraordinarily efficient industry which had met a popular demand and fulfilled a very definite function in the needs of the country. The Government was merely carrying out the behests of a very powerful organization which was opposed to an industry which, because of its youth, had not had the same opportunity to organize and defend its interests. This was a thoroughly bad Bill of which the Government would on some future day be quite ashamed Mr. C. Brown declared that sooner or later national con trol of transport would become an absolute necessity. Sir A. Steel-Maitland also criticized the nmthods of the Bill, which he said was conceived on a fundamental error. What was wanted was a complete overhaul of the whole system under which railway transport was carried on. The subject had never yet been fully gone Into, certainly not by the Salter Conference. It was a dammosa hcereclitas that the Minister had got, and he hoped he would follow it up by starting a real inquiry into the whole of the transport system which would not shirk going into the facts.
Mr. Boyce regarded the Bill as a step in the right direction, and Sir G. Rentoul expressed a hope that road transport, railways, and coastwise shipping would regard themselves as partners and not as competitors scrambling for business. Mr. Parkinson regarded the Bill as only a step in. the direction of co-ordination of transport, which would have to be brought about under national contral in the near future.
Mr. Stanley thereafter, in a brief reply, commended the Bill, believing that this kind of co-ordination which had got to come should come through the voluntary efforts and agreement of the transport interests concerned. He hoped this Bill would be of assistance to them in bringing it to a successful conclusion. If these interests were unable or unwilling to reach co-ordination by their own efforts, then that House sooner or later, whatever its political opinions might be, would be forced to take, by Act of Parliament, powers beside which the powers given in this Bill would seem pale and ineffective.
The amendment was rejected by 163 votes to 25, and the BM was then read a third time.