Electric Tramcars or Motor Omnibuses ?
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Discussion by the Oxford City Council.
Dr. Cannan seconded the motion.
Mr. Twining expressed the opinion that there was no system which would give entire satisfaction in Oxford except electric cars, and he had great pleasure in supporting the recommenda. tion.
Druce expressed the opinion that during his memory of that Corporation he had never had a more important vote to give them on this particular question ; he meant that no financial issue had been quite so great as in this question of the trams. When a small street improvement had been suggested there had been meeting after meeting, long discussions, and the thing had been thoroughly and completely threshed out. He wanted to ask the council had, they really discussed this matter sufficiently to give a definite vote that morning? It had been referred to a committee which, without speaking invidiously, he might say, was a packed committee, that was to say, the majority of the members were practically pledged—there was a small minority who were not pledged--the committee had sat, but the discussions had not been entuely exhaustive, he was quite sure, and they had come to a conclusion not at a large meeting, but, according to a local paper, by a large rnajor:ty. The fact was the committee numbered 21, and ho believed nine voted for and six against. They saw that a large proportion of the members were net present, and on that vote, and the vote of the general purposes committee in the dead season of the year, and at that meeting of the council, which could not be said to be a large one—at which one great section of the ratepayers were barely represented, and in the absence of many members whose opinions they would have liked to have heard—on such a vote he thought it would be unwise to come to a resolution that morning pledging them to a particular mode of traction, and pledging them in effect to an enormous expenditure. (" No, no.") He had not yet made up his mind as to which system was the best. (Mr. Turrill "And never (Laughter.) Not under Mr. Turrill's tuition he thought. (Laughter.) If he were asked to say at the present moment which was the best system he should say no doubt, though motorcars were threatening to become powerful rivals, they had not yet reached a degree of perfectness, and he could hardly vote in favour of them. He thought the time was not ripe. They had is months before they came into possession of the trams, and instead of asking for a direct vote he thought the better plan would be to obtain a Bill for the purpose of electrification, or any wider scheme ; this would take time to get through, and after they had got the Bill it was possible they would then have had time to look round. Other places would be trying experiments with motor buses ; if they were failures they would learn by the experience, and if they were a success they would have saved themselves a large outlay upon unremunerative traction. If after Z.1 few years' time they fcund the trams superseded by another form of traction they would have lost a considerable sum of money. He had never seen anything rushed more precipitously than when they most illogically rushed against a post in Logic Lane, and that resulted in a great expense to the ratepayers, and he was afraid from the way they were rushing this question they would put themselves in a false position. He did not ask them to give a negative vote, but he advised putting off the actual settlement of the matter until they had a full meeting. Let them wait till October or December, and then ask for powers. but not now, when the matter had not been fully discussed, and when there were a large nuinber of members who were actually pledged to a particular kind of traction, and whom no arguments would reach, while there were other members not so pledged, but who were ready to try to do what they could, whether by one system or another, so that the best interests of the city were served. He moved that the matter be adjourned -till October. Mr. Butterfield seconded, because he thought it was a wise proposition. Though he often found himself in a minority, it was not always that the majority was right.
Charge of Rushing the Matter.
Mr. IIastings thought, with Mr. Druce, that the matter had been very injudiciously rushed through. The General Purposes Committee who made the recommendation was not more than half the Council. Let them think of a matter of this importance involving a considerable outlay being recommended when only half the members were present, and then to call a special meeting of the General Purposes Committee to get it through. He found the chairman of the committee was very quiet with respect to the capital expenditure which was to be incurred. The chairman and vice-chairman were very loud in giving estimates a few weeks ago before they got their expert to teach them what would be the cost. They then both kept the figure down to about ,f5-ce000, and said it might reach Zes,000 with the purchase of the old system. He wondered what they thought now Mn Salon had sent in his report, and had advised. them that the capital expenditure in the first place in the city boundary would be Liocu000. He did not make any provision for widening streets like St. Aldate's ; he did not make provision for sinking deep enough, or to meet contingencies arising through going two or three feet underground for the conduit systetn. They could, therefore, take it for granted that it would cost considerably over .4.roo,000. But even taking that they had nearly double what the Council voted on under the recommendation of the chairman and vice-chairman of the Tramways. Committeein June, he wondered, now they had found out that the figure which was suggested in June of LI50,000 was nearly correct, whether the Council would follow these gentlemen so confidently as they did in June. He noticed, too, in the report with regard to the extensions that they were to be considerably more profitable than on the central system. That it was difficult for him to understand. The extensions which were to cost £36,000 were to produce £9,000 odd per annum. The capital expenditure within the city, where the people lived, of £500,000. was to produce not quite twice that amount. He wondered how it was the extensions to Head ington, Iffiey, and Cowley were to. become such paying concerns. But, still, the committs, had swallowed all that They had not checked it, and they did not anticipate checking it. Dr. Cancan and Ald. Salter were satisfied it was quite correct, but he was not prepared to accept it himself, arid when Mr. Sellen reflected he did not think he would be prepared to argue the matter very far. Aid. Salter had said dim all they wanted to know was whether the Council was in favour of electrification. They knew it really meant first the purchase, then a vote on electrification, and then the ultimate question of municipalisation and city working. But both Aid. Salter and the Town Clerk would tell them that before they could get permission to purchase or to electrify, the local Government Board would want to know what they were going to do with the system when they got it. He told. them in June that they had got the cart before the horse. If the promoters nf the scheme had faced the matter in the way they ought to have done, they would not have had a majority of the Council, because there was not a majority of the Council at that time prepared to vote for municipalisation and working the system. He should have liked to see the present company have the option of electrification and working the system ; at any rate, they ought to have the first refusal.
Reason for Action.
Aid. Salter asked the Council not to defer this question till October for one or two reasons. He took it, having decided to purchase this undertaking, the citizens would require them to. make as early use of it as they could. In order to do this, it would be necessary for someone to obtain powers, either by Provisional Order or other means. If the Council decided to. do this, they would have to get the Order in November, and any company would have to do the same. This resolution did not commit them to any expenditure. He purposely refrained. from discussing figures, because that would come at a later stage. The only question the committee asked was, what system they were going to adopt in order that they might get on with their arrangements. They must decide very soon, or else a whole year would be lost. Col. Le Mesurier supported the amendment. He thought they ought not to be in a hurry to undertake a matter of this kind. Aid. Salter said if they did not pass a resolution now they would have to wait another year, and that it was not well to wait for another year. The proposer of the resolution had also stated that Mr. Sellon had entered into the arguments, and come to the conclusion that electric traction was the right thing. He could not see that Mr. Sellon had entered into the arguments, or that he had answered all the questions put before him. He had not answered the question as to the relation of tramlines to other users of the road ; to the occupants of the houses they passed ; to business people who would be disturbed by the shrieking of the cars ; and, with regard to his estimate, he did not think anyone would say it was a very safe one. He conte.nded that they must consider not only those who used tramways, but those who used the roads in other ways. As to the argument that motor buses damaged the roads, he held that more damage was done by swift motorcars. They had had the
opinion of two experts who had no knowledge of the habits and wants of the people. But they had two exp4rts in Oxford whose opinions had not been asked—the city engineer, who had charge of the maintenance of the roads, and the chief constable, who was responsible for the regulation of the traffic. i
Aid. Wheeler said some members stated they were n favour of electric trams whether they paid or not. He thought that was a mistake.
Dr. Cannan observed that he hoped that they would not accept the amendment, for the reasons which the chairman of the committee had given them, but which he thought were scarcely appreciated. The decision of what was to be done must really be arrived at this month. There was not time to take it afterwards. Whatever course they adopted, there were many things to he settled before the necessary notices could be given in November, and, supposing that were not done, the notice for a Provisional Order could not be given till the next November. It would not get through Parliament, perhaps, till August of the following year, so that delay now meant getting well beyond the period at which they took over the trams. And now about the thing being rushed. It seemed to him they had been discussing nothing else much for the last nine months. Instead of feeling that it was rushed, he felt that he was getting rather sick of the subject ; they had discussed it so much. He admitted that much time was wasted by members saying it ought to be discussed when they should have been discussing it, but that was not his fault. (Laughter.) And then as to the statements about the General Purposes Committee meeting. Ile was there–sand some of the gentlemen who made statements were not—and he scarcely recognised the account they gave of the proceedings and the number present. The minutes showed there were 39 members, and a decision was taken nem, con., he thought. There was a. division subsequently on a minor point, and it was carried by 23 to 7, which was a fairly large majority. If they could not do business in a committee of 39, and a Council that morning of 40, it appeared to him they had better shut up al•agether, because, after all, that was a fairly good attendance in term time. The chief decision was arrived at in term time, and there were only a little over 40 present. They had been accused of putting forward estimates, which turned out to be below the facts He was not aware that they had put forward any estimates at all. They had stated that the estimates of the other side were extremely exaggerated, and that appeared to be the case. There was no doubt about that, he thought. The nearest, he thought, approaching an estimate was a statement that the Tramways Company proposed some years ago to do a similar sort of thing for about ,Cs so,000, which was not very far from the estimate now put forward. As to Mr. Sellon's estimates, he thought they had scarcely appreciated the great position he occupied in these matters. He was the foremost man in England in estimating traffic and so on. He was not a small venturer, who would sacrifice his reputation for the sake of getting a little job like this. He had been employed in matters which concerned millions, and it was absurd to suppose he was going to sacrifice his reputation over a matter of this kind. They might have, he thought, considerable confidence in Mr. Sellon's estimates. Ile had had a great deal of experience in other places, and had given a great deal of time to the question, and had, no doubt, taken into consideration the special circumstances of Oxford. One or two minor points had been raised. Mr. Hastings objected to the estimate for the outside districts, which, apparently, would bring in more profit than those in the centre. He should have thought there was nothing very remarkable in that. When they had once started the scheme, and supplied the main portions of the plant and so on, it was highly probable that extensions would supply a higher rate of profit. They had not to supply nearly so much of the central machinery for them as they had for the main lines, He should like to point out that the financial comparison given in the appendix must not be taken to be what they considered was a right comparison. It was perfectly evident on the face of it that the comparison was not nearly so favourable to the motor buses as these columns would at the first glance lead anyone to suppose. At first they were told they would make Z7,300 out of motor buses, and now they had allowed for capital expenditure and interest and sinking fund on that, and Mr. Beaumont had allowed partly for a mistake which he made, it came down to less than half that, but they did not by any means accept that half. As a matter of fact, Mr. Beaumont went originally on the experience of the Oxford Tramways Company, and imagined they got 124d. per mile, when last year they were getting sod. He had now allowed for rather snore than half, and put it down to 'id. per mile. That was to say, he expected to get x id. per mile, which was a penny more than Mr. Sellon expected to get. Every penny made a difference of Z2,000 a year, so that it was a very considerable matter. He thought anyone could see the absurdity of supposing motor buses carrying 34 at the outside could take a penny a mile more than tramcars carrying 48. It seemed perfectly ridiculous to suppose that motor buses wc,uld not have to run considerably more miles than trams in order to carry the same number of people and secure the same receipts. If they made this correction, the whole of Mr. Beau. moat's balance disappeared, and they got nothing out of it. Besides this, they had to pay for the extra roadmaking due to running these heavy vehicles 5,300 miles a day over the roads. So they did not accept the comparison at all as to receipts. As to the working expenses, he noticed Mr. Beaumont's estimate was considerably lower than that in the prospectus of the company issued some time ago.
The Sheriff thought it should be understood that this did not commit the Council at all to a system of electrification to be carried on by the City.
Mr. T. H. Kingerlee said in General Purposes Committee he made this statement, that there was not a single member of the Corporation who had not already made up his mind which was the best system for the City. (" No, no.") They had considered this matter for months, they had had it discussed and re-discussed. In fact, they had been discussing it for several years past. If they wished to rush it, why did they not allow the present company to electrify two or three years ago? Then it might have been said they were rushing it, because municipal bodies had not had an opportunity of testing the possibilities of electricity. They were told that this undertaking in Oxford was an enormous one; that Oxford had seen nothing like it. Did they not spend nearly .42oo,0oo on a drainage system, which was now productive? People were very hard to please. When the matter was first discussed in the Council, the complaint was that the committee came without an estimate. They never brought an estimate that this work could be done for Z5o,000. That would be absurd. Speaking of the Vanguard system of buses in London, Mr. Kingerlee observed that he was speaking to a driver of one, who said sometimes they were in "dock" and sometimes they were out, but when they were out they made them run ao hours a day to make them pay. An evening paper stated that the General Omnibus Company had a reserve of £4o,00o set aside, which they intended to spend in motor bus experiments. It also stated that at Eastbousne they had been very unsuccessful, but it was better to go to the fountain head. He had written to the Town Clerk of Eastbourne, asking him certain questions. Mr. Beaumont said a motor bus could be run at 7.33d., and put the traffic expenses at only 45 of a penny, and general administration at a little less than gd. The Town Clerk of Eastbourne wrote that it was difficult to verify the figures. They had had a motor bus service there for three years, but during that period they had made a loss, though they had borrowed the money, to be repaid in .a. period of so years. As to the roads, the Town Clerk of EaAbourne said they had been put to extra cost in maintaining the roads, but what that amount was it was impossible to say, but he added that there had been an increase in watering the road to keep down the dust, made absolutely necessary by using motor buses. They could vote if they liked to put off this matter for another 12 months, but if they did, their experience would not be very much greater than they had at their command to-day. I.et them decide to-day what was the best system of traction in Oxford, and the question of municipalisation would come on later. They had all made up their minds what they intended voting for, and the quicker they voted the better it would be.
Mr. Druce, in reply, urged that if the matter were put off for a year, it would only mean they would continue running the present system six months longer than was intended. In the interim they could try the experiment of one or two motor buses at a cost of about .42,000, which could not be an entire loss. They did not want the experience of other towns at second hand, and garbled figures would not satisfy them. Ile had been to Eastbourne, and it was impossible to say the roads had been damaged by motor buses, because there were many other vehicles that went over them. Again, it was said that Eastbourne had lost by motor buses, but would the system have paid if there had been electric trams? Then were they sure they would get the sanction of the Local Government Board for borrowing the money? At the present time the Local Government Board had a minute before them on the question whether they. should continue to give leave to municipalities to borrow for 30 years for electric traction ; they looked with a proper amount of distrust on the spreading of the repayment over this period of years. He hoped if they proceeded with the matter that day it would be subject to their being able to obtain a loan. from the Local Government Board.
The Mayor : The question before the Council is as to the advisability of electric tramways.
Mr. Druce said he hoped the Council would consent to an adjournment ; it could do no serious injury, and might save. great expense.
On a division the voting resulted as under:— For the amendment ...
Against ... .•. 21