Needs of 1965 not necessarily et by formula of 1947 --Minister
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MR. TOM FRASER don't know what is in it. I am not able to say whether or not it will be published. This does not mean that I am against publication of the report. I feel I must honour the normal course by saying: Let me see it and then let me decide.
Are you bound to take legislative action on the reports of Geddes and your own study group?
Until we get the report we don't know whether Geddes is going to make any recommendations the implementation of which will require legislation.
If one makes the assumption that the recommendations would require legislation to be implemented, one then has to consider the possibility of recommendations being unacceptable to. the Government, or even unacceptable to Parliament— which is quite possible If the committee made recommendations which got a very hostile reception from the public and Parliament, unless the Minister and Government were desperately keen to give effect to them presumably legislative action would not follow.
The answer really is that the Minister is not obliged to lake legislative action. even 'if it is recommended. But we had better wait and see what Geddes says. The report will obviously need consideration, and it will have to be taken into account with the co-ordination study that we are about to put under way. It is at least possible that, even if Geddes recommended changes in the Statute, we would wish to compete the co-ordination study before we take the matter any further.
Are you in favour of voluntary co-operation between the various sectors Of inland transport in an attempt to co-ordinate services? How far can such co-operation take the place of Stale direction of transport facilities?
I think that the country will profit from voluntary co-operation between the various sectors of inland transport in any attempt they might make to co-ordinate services. and I think that at the moment there is quite a bit of co-operation. I am a22 not satisfied that there is anything like enough; but it would be wrong of me to contend that no effort is made at all.
The Railways Board, in its proposals for the introduction of liner trains, have had to have a lot of discussion with the road hauliers, and I understand that the Board is very happy with the discussion that has taken place. All that is an indication of there being in existence a voluntary co-operation between the providers of transport, who so frequently seem to be in conflict.
It is not possible for me to 'say, in anticipation of the co-ordination study. whether there will be any need for the State further to impose its will upon the providers of our transport services. I certainly want to see much better co-ordination than there is at the present time. I want to see the different parts of inland transport services developed as complementary one to the other, rather than to continue—as is sometimes suggested is the right thing to be--entirely competitive.
Can this be interpreted as a change in Labour Party policy towards inland transport?
Well. I am having my co-ordination study because I do not think that the needs of 1965 would necessarily best be met by applying the formula of 1947.
Do you consider that there is a surplus of inland transport facilities and, if you do, could you suggest how the problem might be tackled?
This is really part of the study, isn't it? If our nation is going to prosper, we are going to have to use our resources more fully; and if we are going to use the total resources of the nation more fully, it means that we must not create resources which are going to be inadequately employed.
We keep coming back to Geddes and the co-ordination study. A great many C-licensed vehicles are used for purposes for which no other party could provide the transport. I have the impression that C licences which are used, particularly to carry goods over long distances, very often represent vehicles which are not fully employed because they usually carry goods in one direction only. I believe that the road hauliers themselves
—the A and B licence holders—can show that they can provide , better and more economic services for people who are at the moment choosing to operate their own C licences_ One does find inefficiency in transport, not only in this country but throughout the world. and I think that in all probability the use of a lot of C-licensed vehicles, particularly over long distances, is a manifestation of inefficiency in the transport service generally.
But this is not the whole of the problem by a long way; it is a little part. This could be said to be a little part of surplus capacity, but I don't want to pre-judge these things.
What changes in vehicles and services would you like to see p.s.v. operators making so as to attract motorists on to urban buses, thus trying to ease congestion in the streets? Have operators taken advantage of the Ministry's offers in recent years to alter regulations which are considered restrictive?
The industry did suggest that we should look at their ideas, and it is right to say that the operators are fully conscious that they might get more scope, for example on the matter of turning circles, lengths and weight and so on. It would be idle to say that they are satisfied, and discussions are going on. They have suggested that we should take a good look at the whole of the present regulations to see if we can cut out some dead wood. But, at the same time. it is true to say that operators are going ahead pretty well with new types of vehicle.
I don't know how much more I can say. You had an article on this last May in which you commented on the chief mechanical engineer's ideas. These are all being considered. These ideas included two staircases. doors on both sides for one-way streets. and all the rest—and you commented favourably on these. There are ideas on new operational techniques, such as the new ticket machine at Manchester. The bus operators clearly feel that traffic is one of their most difficult problems and, from the point of view of the passenger, he probably wants speed and regularity of service. The Ministry's London traffic team have given a lot of attention to this and the speeding-up of traffic has helped the buses a lot. Other ideas are being looked at in many parts of the country— Manchester. Birmingham and Sheffield. for instance. It is a matter on which the transport and the local authority ought to work closely together. One should be able to do a good deal to help with the improvement of services.
Bus operators say that they would like to sec the maximum of co-operation. This means that in some places there is good consultation and in some there is not. To make public transport more attractive, consultation is essential between all those concerned about the different aspects of the problem at local level. I think more could be done towards encouraging the use of such things as private lanes for buses and perhaps more working of buses against one-way flows, as in Berkeley Street: London.
Well, it is a national problem because one finds it in all. parts of -rural Britain. There can be no doubt that, as the Jack Committee found. the decline of rural bus services causes hardship to a few people and, of course, causes inconvenience to many more.
The size of the problem and the seriousness of it varies a lot from one locality to another. It is not easy to see a solution to the problem. More and more people. particularly in rural areas. are providing their own transport. I should think that the proportion of people employing personal transport increases the more deeply you get into the countryside.
If you were to do a checkon this, you would find that car ownership in the Shetland Islands is higher than anywhere else in Great Britain: and you will find that the average income is probably the lowest in Great Britain. This is very odd, but true, because there you have a very sparsely populated island with a population so thin that it doesn't justify the provision of public services, and transport is so essential to the livelihood that the population there would put personal transport seCond only to shelter. So it looms pretty large in the budget of the really rural dwelling.
Of course, one finds that not everyone, can drive his or her own motor car for one reason or another. You have old people. disabled people, and you have children and the provision of transport services for them.
I am not sure at all about this because, even though the proportion of the people depending upon public transport is going down, nonetheless it is the present licensing system which lets bus operators enjoy a protection in the remunerative services that enables them to run unremunerative routes.
It does not follow that, because more and more people are providing personal transport, the Government's responsibility is growing less. It may be that the responsibility becomes more of a national problem than it was before. Some people still need buses. They may have had a service of sorts until that disappears. or is threatened with complete disappearance unless there is an element of subsidy-unless something is done to help the operator. Now these local inquiries that have been going on: they have been trying out methods of meeting the local need, and we have not yet been able to draw any conclusions, but we should be able to do so in a few months' time. Inquiries have been really going to the root of the problems in these particular areas. They are going through the whole gamut of possible solutions, ranging from changes in the bus services, providing new ones with. in some cases, a guarantee from the local authority and the Government, and also going on to the other possibility of using school buses and the possibility of car pooling schemes. When we have the results and the practical experience on the ground, the best answers to the problems you have mentioned should begin to appear.
People have argued about the right solution -whether it should be the subsidy at the national level or local level, or whether it should be some sort of voluntary effort, or whether it should be some change in the licensing set-up as it exists at present. All these have their disadvantages; subsidies have their disadvantages, and any undermining of, the existing bus operators' network of services might make things worse.