Society of Road Traction Engineers.
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Discussion on Mr. W. E. Hardy's Paper.
The practical and detailed paper read by Mr. Hardy provoked a discussion which was no less practical. The criticisms expressed were the opinions of men who spoke from the knowledge born of experience, and were not the outcome of mere theoretical reasoning, which, however admirable in its place, is emphatically out of place in dealing with the particular problems which await solution in this field of application of mechanical traction. The debate ranged over a considerable gamut, and struck just the right note, suggesting that the difficulties which stand in the way of a more extended adoption of the motor omnibus are being attacked on lines which ought to bring success. This at least Was very clear, that the needs of the position are fully realised, and that those responsible are better acquainted with the nature of the problems, financial and otherwise, which have to be solved, than their many critics.
Mr. H. G. Burford, M.I.Mech.E., opened the debate after an attempt to be relegated to a later position in the programme. He said that the Society was to be congratulated on having a paper read by an experienced tramway manager, who had moreover made valuable suggestions as to. the direction in which the operating costs of the motoromnibus might be reduced. All those engaged in the business were fully alive to the fact that there must be some reduction in working costs if the motor omnibus were to be made a commercial success. In that endeavour they believed they would be ultimately successful, and that the motor omnibus was destined to become an important factor in modern life. Mr. Hardy had correctly pointed out that the initial outlay was not a factor to be too closely regarded in the endeavour to attain commercial success, but that the capital expenditure should rather be made with a view to economical and efficient working. If that fact had been realised at an earlier date by some of the companies operating in London, there would have been fewer fiascos to record. Mr. Hardy's experience in the provinces gave him authority to speak on the subject of management, and he did not propose to criticise that portion of his paper.
An Improved Carburetter.
He agreed that there must be some improvement in the carburetter, and that a motor omnibus must be made to run more than 4 to 5 miles per gallon. He believed, indeed, that a carburetter had been designed which would give from 6 to 6i miles to the gallon. The further question arose whether a carburetter could be designed which would burn paraffin. On that point he was bound to say that, even if such a carburetter were available, he did not believe the authorities would permit it to be used in London. As it was, the restrictions of the police were very drastic, and he believed that, in London at all events, reliance would still have to be placed on petrol. Reference was made in the paper to the consumption of lubricating oil, and, in his opinion, that was one of the most important factors in the commercial running of a motor vehicle. Unquestionably a large proportion of the lubricating oil used at the present time was practically wasted. He personally was of opinion that large savings could he effected by the introduction on a general scale of a forced-feed system.
With regard to the training of drivers, he certainly believed that steps should be taken to evolve a more capable body of men. The importance of this question had never been fully realised in London, the training of drivers having been left in the hands of men who themselves were by no means efficient. That had an important bearing on the successful working of• the motor omnibus.
Figures were quoted in the paper on the subject of working costs, and with some of those figures he was in agreement. With what was said on the subject of spare parts he did not agree, and did not think that matter was going to have much effect on the operating costs. It was true that spare parts were being made in this country by firms who were not motor manu. facturers, and it was not surprising that such parts did not fit, were not interchangeable, and were often worthless. Unless spare parts were standardised, he failed to see how any saving was to be made in that direction. To effect savings in repairs and renewals, it was necessary that the machine should be overhauled more regularly. In some instances that had come under his personal notice, the omnibuses had been worked until they practically fell to pieces. At the same time, it was no doubt necessary that improvements should be made in the chassis itself, with the view to reducing the outlay on repairs. On the subject of tires, he believed that, having arrived at the point of a guarantee of 2d. per mile, we had got as far as we could for a few years to come ; or, at all events, until rubber was cheaper. He believed that, with good management and with careful overhauling, motor omnibuses could be worked in London at a profit.
Mr. Arthur Spurrier said that Mr. Hardy's argument was based on running only 13 omnibuses out of 20. He had had experience, and was ot opinion that, with the up-to-date chassis now appearing on the streets, 17 out of 20 should be kept in service, with the result of obtaining a greatly increased mileage. He believed that there ought to be a weekly mileage per vehicle, for the whole 20 buses, of 600, raising the mileage to a total of 12,000 instead of 8,150. That might be thought an extreme figure, but he only spoke of what had been done and what was being done at the present time.
• Maintenance Contracts.
In some respects Mr. Hardy's running costs were under. estimated, drivers and conductors being put down at 1.8d. per mile, whereas, in London, it would average something like 2-1d. per mile. In the paper the receipts were put down at Is. pet mile, and he thought that was an over-estimate, as far as London was concerned, and that 111-d. would be a more correct figure. Taking that figure and the expenses at 10d. per mile, a figure which he was certain could be realised, that would show a profit on the corrected mileage of about £4,000 per annum, after allowing for everything, including depreciation. He knew a responsible and sound company which was prepared to take a contract to supply omnibuses in London with petrol and lubricating oil, to provide tires, to do all repairs, to wash and clean them, and to depreciate them, for aid. per mile. A new chassis would be supplied in place of the old one, at the end of five years. With regard to the further lessening of working costs, that was bound to come. Tires were bound to be cheaper, the cost of rubber during the last few months having fallen something like £101) per ton, and, as fresh fields of rubber were opened up, the cost would come down still further, He believed the cost of petrol would also decrease, and that 11d. per mile should be sufficient to cover the cost of repairs on a modern chassis. He believed that time was coming when a profit of 2d. per mile would be easily made with the motor omnibus in the streets of London. The motorbus had come to stay, and those who invested in the enterprise would reap the advantage of the experience of those pioneers who had lost money in the past.
Mr. A. C. Clifford (Metropolitan Steam Omnibus Co., Ltd.) said he would like to ask Mr. Hardy one question. Supposing the fleet of 20 omnibuses to increase Nery largely, how did he propose to deal with his cost card system? In the case of 100 omnibuses, the card would be very large. He ventured the criticism that the card was not very elastic.
Education of Drivers: the Wages Problem.
Mr. P. Frost Smith (Thomas Tilling, Ltd.), Vice-Chairman of the Society, pointed out the difficulty of comparing a country service with a London service, which made it hard to criticise the paper. At the same time there were a few points to which he would like to direct attention. Mr. Hardy laid a good deal of stress on the education of drivers; but, in his opinion, the attempt to educate drivers was a waste of time, as the type of men available could not be taught. From that standpoint it was a hopeless proposition. Electric tramway companies did not attempt to teach their drivers all about the electrical equipment. The ideal vehicle was one which the most ignorant man, from a technical point of view, could drive. If he could drive with safety, steer properly, and use his brakes, that was all that was required, and it devolved upon makers to evolve a vehicle which was as simple as a tramcar to drive. No doubt on long service routes, and for mail car work between London and Brighton and other places, a more intellectual type of man was required ; but such a man would_ never be persuaded to drive an omnibus.
With regard to the wages of drivers and conductors, Mr. Hardy, at Bath, had the advantage over London, and, with his Tow mileage, probably only exployed one driver per vehicle, Drivers and conductors in London had to be paid more—from 2i.d. to afd. per mile. Mr. Hardy's other wages were certainly low, compared with London, and the 6d. and 8d. which Mr. Hardy paid in Bath became 9d. and 10d. in London. In comparison with the low wages paid to the mechanical staff, he would draw attention to high wages Mr. Hardy paid to the management. In his opinion, with a fleet of 20 omnibuses, and only 13 in service, the management ought not to cost more than
per annum. Then Mr. Hardy's clerical staff was extraordinary there were more clerks and storekeepers than fitters and other necessary mechanics. If a London garage were conducted on these lines the manager might expect to get fired out, In London, they ran 140 miles per day, did 98 per cent, of the schedule of work, and held in reserve 20 per cent, of the vehicles. That meant averaging about 78 per cent, of the total possible work, but even then it was not possible to get the costs down so low as those quoted in the paper.
He joined in the hope that a more efficient carburetter would he devised, and with regard to lubrication he agreed that more oil was wasted than was properly used. He personally preferred the splash form of lubrication, as he did not know of any really satisfactory form of forced-feed lubrication. These typcs were being improved, but a frequent source of trouble arose from the escape of oil through the end of the main bearing, and this happened whatever brand of oil was used. Probably a solution of the difficulty would be found in a completely-enclosed crank case, with the supply so nicely regulated that the minimum quantity of oil necessary was used and no more.
He was glad Mr. Hardy dealt with the cost and maintenance and with spare parts supplied by manufacturers. Instead of selling spare parts at cost price, or something near that figure, to encourage the industry, they had been charging for spare parts a price which represented about 120 per cent, net profit. The result was that owners had been driven to put. down plant themselves, and, although this action had excited the derision of the trade, motor omnibus companies had found that this policy paid.
The night shift was a real difficulty ; one could not expect good men to work at night under the conditions prevailing in an ordinary running shed, and only a low grade of labour could be obtained. What was wanted was a bus which would not require attention at night, except the necessary washing down. The necessity for adjustment of back axle, clutches, and the like ought to be avoided, and he believed it could be.
Reference had been made by Mr. Burford to the motor mail van business, and under that head he would say that his company was running mail vans to Ipswich, Brighton, and other places, from London, and that branch of the business had worked very well.
An Advocate of Trained Drivers.
Mr. H. P. G. Bralrenridge (the Daimler Motor Co., Ltd.) referred to checking tools. He had tried a system of that kind ; the men used to bring the tools in, wait until they were checked, and then in the morning they were checked out again. That was kept up for about a fortnight, by which time he was tired of it. Tools were constantly missing, and there were numerous men to be interviewed about the losses. Personally, he did not think such a system was practicable, and he preferred to let the men find the tools and lose their own and not the company's. With regard to keeping 13 buses on the road out of 20, he was an advocate for a lower mileage and fewer buses on the road than many people, but he had not got so low as 13 out of 20. Thirteen was an unlucky number, and personally he thought that a much higher, or a much lower number, should have been run.
Looking at Mr. Hardy's wages, he noticed that he paid the night foreman 45s. per week, and the rest of the staff in proportion. Certainly a night staff in London could not be run at anything like those wages. In his opinion, the night foreman should be paid higher wages than the day foreman, as he ought to be a better man. That point was very important.
He did not agree with what Mr. Frost Smith said about drivers at all. As the industry grew older, it was true, with the improved vehicles being put in service, less skilled drivers were required, but, at the same time, he believed that the driver should be able to do little things on the road, and he was rather in favour of bringing the driver up to a point in regard to knowledge of his machine which would enable the road engineer to be dispensed with. No elaborate adjustment ought to be required more frequently than every two or three weeks, and he hoped in the future it would only be every two or three months. Satisfactory road inspectors could not be obtained in T.ondon.
Country and Town Services Compared.
Mr. Douglas Mackenzie emphasised the difference between a London and a country service. In dealing with a country service, it had to be remembered that this service was very different in the winter from what it was in the summer. He would mention the case of a route being served at the present time by three omnibuses, which required 13 in the summer, while, in another instance, a service which required 10 omnibuses in the summer had been altogether suspended. The system outlined by Mr. Hardy was inapplicable to a service between these extreme limits. For instance, was it to be supposed that a company would spend large sums in training drivers who would only be required for three months in the summer? Under those circarnstances, one could not expect to get drivers of the trained class ; one must either have wasters from other companies, or one must endeavour to train men who in the previous season had been conductors. The requirements for a London and country service were obviously different, the London man requiring to be skilled in traffic, and the country driver being called upon to know how to drive what was often mainly pleasure traffic, and to study the wishes of passengers. As far as a country service was concerned, there was no necessity for a night staff at all, as the necessary adjustments could be done at other times. He thought that criticism applied to Mr. Hardy's service, as it seemed to him that, with only
13 buses out of 20 in service, all repairs could be effected during the clay. He personally had been in the position of having a buses in service out of 13, and even under those circumstances it was possible to do the repairs early in the morning, or in the dinner hour. With regard to the travelling inspector, he thought that all operating engineers would agree that where he was also a ticket inspector he was the weak point of the motoromnibus system. The inspector was too often in league with the men it was desired to detect, whilst if employed to report on traffic in outlying districts his report was absolutely unreliable.
Mr. T. E. Emerson (London Electrobus Co., Ltd.) thought that Mr. Hardy would have to correct his figures. On the subject of drivers, he agreed with Mr. Frost Smith that the technical driver was no good. His experience was that when a driver of that type had a breakdown and attempted to effect a repair, it usually ended in having to send a lorry to fetch the vehicle and its parts back to the repair shop. Mr. W. Flexman French (Ryknield Motor Co., Ltd.) asked where Mr. Hardy got his spare drivers when all 20 buses were required. Mr. A. Grey (British Petroleum Co., Ltd.) said that Mr. Hardy in putting petrol down at 8d, per gallon had overstated the price; it was now cheaper than that for large omnibus contracts.
Before calling upon Mr. Hardy-to reply on the discussion, the Chairman moved that a hearty vote of thanks be accorded to Mr. Hardy lox his valuable and interesting paper.
The resolution was c'arried by acclamation.
The Reply.
Mr. Hardy, in a brief reply to the criticisms passed on his paper, said he was glad to hear from Mr. Burford that there were hopes of a carburetter which would give from 6 to 6i miles to the gallon. He was bound to say that spare parts for motor omnibuses were very dear. In that connection, he had brought up for inspection a 14-tooth tramway pinion, which was cut from the best steel and finished off in a workmanlike manner, although not perhaps in quite the same way as Mr. Burford's gears. The cost of that was 9s. 6d. ; if a motor manufacturer had made it, the cost would be about £5. (Laughter.)
Some criticism had been levelled at the fact that he had only 13 omnibuses on the road out of 20, The truth was that, in order to maintain a service where omnibuses broke down in the country portion of the route, it was necessary to keep a pod reserve. If as many as 17 were kept in service out of 20, then with two held in reserve, that only allowed of one omnibus being overhauled at a time. It was quite clear that by increasing the mileage as suggested, a higher profit could be shown. He had heard Mr. Spurrier's offer with much interest, and, if he had any motorbuses running in London, Mr. Spurrier should .certainly have the contract at the price quoted.
On the vexed question of the training of drivers, it seemed to him, from the engineer's point of view, a great mistake not to train the drivers. No tramcar driver would be put on a hilly route under a month's training. A certain amount of training was, in his opinion, desirable. If it was necessary in the case of a tramcar, it was still more necessary in the case of the driver of a motorbus, the ineclaanism of which was more complicated than that of a tramcar. In a country service, the trained driver could prevent the omnibus being hung up in the country all day awaiting some simple adjustment. Locomotive drivers on the railway were paid no more than motorbus drivers, and they certainly knew more about the engine than the motoromnibus driver did about the vehicle of which he was in charge.
On the subject of the salary paid to the manager, it had to he borne in mind that he was responsible for the undertaking, both from the business and from the engineering standpoint.
Mr. Frost Smith said that he could not run at the costs given in the paper, and it occurred to him that perhaps the high mileage which Mr. Smith got out of his buses, 140 per day, was the explanation. On the tool question, he would only say that with a country service it was essential that a certain number of tools should be carried on the omnibus. Those tools were not taken off the bus, but were, checked on the vehicle by the man responsible when the bus was taken over from the driver.
He did not agree that the night foreman had to be a better man than the day foreman. It was the day foreman who had adjustments. of repairs, the night foreman dealing only with adjust
As regarded drivers, when buses were run in connection with tramcars, the drivers were accustomed to deal with traffic, and did not start quite as novices. Another advantage was that they could be employed on the cars in the winter, if not required for the omnibus service, while spare men could their places in the summer. Mr. Mackenzie had evidently unfortunate
with his inspectors' ile and could not have selected r .ight type of
man. In Bath, they found no difficulty in obtaining suitable inspectors, recruiting them from the tramway men.
He begged to thank the meeting for the kind manner'in which the paper had been received.