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Duncan H. Foulds looks back — and forward — in an interview with John Darker

12th October 1973
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Page 54, 12th October 1973 — Duncan H. Foulds looks back — and forward — in an interview with John Darker
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Which of the following most accurately describes the problem?

NO ONE is better qualified than Duncan Foulds to weigh up the pros and cons of public and private enterprise from the standpoint of the senior transport executive. He asks why BAS companies with competent management and, for the most part, a sufficiency of capital, have not been more profitable and he concludes that it is the uncertainty arising from — in the last resort — political control that distracts top managers from their full potential. "If you're caught up in politics — and the internal dogfight that this involves — you're inhibited in many ways, If your existence depends on the whim of a Minister you must obey or get out. Defiance carried too far — remember Stanley Raymond, the British Rail chairman — ends with the chopper."

Mr Foulds had enough time in State jobs to form an insider's view, but it was in private enterprise transport that he completed his active career. When he recently retired as a director of United Transport Company Ltd, road haulage lost one of its most distinguished managers. His decade of service with UTC, where he was managing director of Bulwark United Transport Ltd, was marked by the acquisition of Robert Wynn and Sons Ltd, of Newport, of Sinter Bros. Ltd, of Northallerton, among other prominent specialist hauliers.

Later, he was a director of United Freight Holdings Ltd -a UTC company set up to accommodate tne developing general haulage interests of the Group — when Smith of Maddiston, Jameson Transport and International Ferry Freight were acquired.

Duncan Foulds's career in road transport really began in 1932 as manager of the substantial C-licence end private car fleet of Ca'lenders Cables and Construction Company Ltd. Good young transport managers were keenly sought after then, as now. In 1937 he was persuaded to join Pickfords Ltd as assistant to Mr Harold Elliott, at that time manager of the large Willow Walk parcels depot. Later, he became accountant at Willow Walk and a year later he was co-ordinating four Pickfords companies in the Isle of Wight.

Mr Foulds's war service in the Navy, where he was probably the first RNVR officer to be given a destroyer command, was eventful and distinguished. Almost five years to the day after he joined his first ship in 1940, Lieutenant Commander Foulds's release was sought by the general manager of Pickfords. In October 1945 he became assistant to Mr N. R, Fawkner, at that time chief parcels manager of Carter Paterson, whose parcels activities were in the process of being merged with those of Pickfords.

Duncan Foulds's managerial and organizing skills were soon put to the test in ensuring the effective establishment of the Carter Paterson and Pickfords Joint Parcels Services. He was made assistant chief parcels manager in 1946 and subsequently chief parcels manager. In 1949 he became managing director of the organization which was then renamed Carter Paterson (BTC) Ltd.

In a way that often recurs in transport, Duncan Foulds's career again became involved with that of his old friend — they were both educated at Brighton College — Harold Elliott. In 1950, following upon the Road Haulage Executive's decision to divide Carter Paterson's interests among the RHE geographical divisions, Mr Foulds was appointed deputy chief traffic manager (commercial) at RHE headquarters, in which job he worked closely with Harold Elliott, then chief traffic officer. In the next nine years Duncan Foulds was a key man in the development and promotion of BRS commercial policies. He was largely instrumental in establishing BRS Contracts Ltd, of which he was a director, and he was made chairman of Anglo-Continental Containers Ltd (subsequently Containerways) when that company was acquired by British Road Services in 1958. He was active on numerous committees and bodies concerned with, among other things, the co-ordination of road, rail, shipping and waterway activities.

And 32 years to the day, from first joining Pickfords, on April 1 19 59, Mr Foulds was appointed general manager. Little more than three years later a distinguished career in State road transport was ended with the offer by Mr John H. Watts, chairman of the United Transport Company Ltd, of Chepstow, to join his organization.

Duncan Foulds is a modest and reticent man. Considering his wide background experience, enriched by his close association with many of the nation's most capable transport managers, it cannot have been an easy decision to bale out of State transport when holding the general managership of Pickfords, the oldest transport organization In the world. Still higher rungs of the ladder remained to be scaled. Ignoring any question of security, how do you break away from respected colleagues who, with you, have spent the best years of their lives building a public enterprise road transport system? How do you face the wrench of abandoning loyal subordinate managers and staff "for whom I had the greatest respect and affection"?

It would be easy to explain Mr FoulcIs s move in a word — ideological differences compelled it. In a sense, this is true. Every type of large organization today is subject to immense pressures for change. At one time the drive from the top stems from the accountant or marketing man; there are pendulum swings of centralizers and de-centralizers. In public enterprise transport, managers are 'subjected to the whims of ministerial — or Whitehall — policies and attitudes which may be both distracting and frustrating.

Duncan Foulds's cast of mind was shaped, I think, by his service to the Pickfords organization. Duncan as a young man worked with the dedicated and able Pickfords senior management team — people like Harold Elliott. assistant general mantiger, Charles Bostock, company secretary, Rex Faro, chief engineer, J. Drummond, in charge of heavy haulage, and J. McLean, removals manager, as well as Mr William Elliott.

The management approach of the company was semi-paternalistic but its top management were undoubtedly imbued with the feeling that they worked for a basically good organization, even the finest road transport concern in the world. Today, loyalty to the organization you wait for is not always seen to be a virtue, at lesst crude commercial terms. Then — in the Thirties, with two or three million unemployed as a persuasive factor in individual behaviour — loyalty to your boss or the company was prudent, if nothing more.

Perhaps one day someone who was part of the scene will write a candid history of the organizational struggles accompanying the early years of nationalized road transport. The story ought to be told, for who is to say that history will not repeat itself in large measure? Duncan Foulds makes no secret of his dislike for

"amorphous entities". He thinks Pickfords could have been preserved as part of the nationalized structure and is equally convinced that no adequate case was made for breaking up the Carter Paterson company. Yet, as managing director of Carter Paterson, he was asked to break up the living structure of the company, giving up components to area managers of BRS Parcels to extend their empire.

The battle raged for a year and one can vividly imagine the flavour of many lunchtime arguments since there was substance to both points of view. Duncan Foulds had much respect for General Charles Russell, despite his being among the enemy ranks of "breaker-uppers". If the Russell view prevailed in the end it was, perhaps, a . close thing, for some of Russell's board colleagues "had considerable sympathy" with Duncan Foulds.

On the goodwill in old company names Duncan Foulds points to the analogy of famous old regiments whose identity has been steam-rollered out of existence. -The wholesale slaughter of company organizations making a lot of money was a sin." One is bound to reflect on the frequency with which this problem recurs; some takeover operations, or company mergers, do allow the constituent companies a measure of independence. Vehicle liveries and documentation may, or may not, survive a major reorganization.

In all management jobs the relationship with the company — often personified by the top executive — is crucially important. Duncan Foulds says he has been exceptionally lucky to work for men for whom he has had a warm regard and respect. "I couldn't have worked for any man with no regard for the humanities of life; this would have been against my nature."

Of course, however friendly the relationship may be with a senior manager, there are times when a young manager must be helped. It is characteristic of most distinguished managers and administrators that they are good at grooming junior management; the way to progress may be to help your number two to step into your own shoes; in a very large organization, always to seek to fit younger managers to take greater responsibility.

Duncan Foulds is honest enough to admit that in road transport a manager may be failing to deliver the financial results expected of him through no fault of his own. He may need corporate backing or specific help in areas of weakness. Rate structures may be out of date: there may be over-staffing or a wrong "mix" of vehicles. If a manager is compelled to work a tired fleet intensively, his maintenance and running costs must be high and his customer relations will suffer from excessive down-time. The remedy may call for the injection of new capital and for every possible action to reinforce the manager's confidence in his own abilities. "Top management have a big responsibility in their appointment of a manager. If he fails after all possible support they may be to blame for choosing the wrong man."

Companies acquired by United Transport were kept going as separate entities and the philosophy of making company management a real job was followed. Managers felt and were encouraged to feel that they almost owned the companies they worked for.

General management skills were developed to the greatest possible extent, particularly in regard to trading relationships and in the field of labour relations. The essential thing was to make managers responsible for the things that they could personally influence and not bother them with irrelevancies.

Following this policy, Duncan Foulds was able to play a background role in all UTC labour difficulties. "I made a fetish of avoiding trade union confrontations. On no occasion did I have to intervene personally, and this reflects much credit on the trade unions and managers concerned.

"My managers never made a deal regarded as unfair or unreasonable. Neither side got what they wanted but as a group we did not pay through the nose for peace. In due course the cost of any settlement was recompensed through increased effciency or where appropriate, rate increases."

I could not resist some vigorous questioning of Duncan Foulds on his attitudes to road transport labour relations. As an ex-naval commander, for example, was he shocked by the comparatively lax industrial discipline of the past decade or so?

In his view there has been no vast erosion of discipline. "The 'barking` type of manager or supervisor is less often met with today, but I've never favoured that approach. Generally, managers in the 70's are more mellow; the tough-talking 'hard' manager may Pack an essential quality of management — the ability to understand people, to listen patiently to their problems and worries and to offer constructive help and understanding.

"In any event, the breed of men now won't accept the old type of discipline; they are more responsible and better educated; they live better and expect to be treated differently."

Of course, a transport business cannot be organized to suit the convenience of its staff. Traffic and general managers have responsibilities to fulfil which'reouire good organization and discipline. But if a driver, or anyone, has a major personal problem, management should try to be considerate. It helps if the employment unit is relatively small. "On a small ship a good divisional officer would note any subordinate who was 'pale about the gills' and talk to him before things became serious. At UTC we had small units where managers knew their people pretty well. Where depots in transport employed substantial numbers, management's problems become more formidable."

I raised the question of disparate pay for various classes of drivers. Parcels drivers, he agrees, have a hard life humping goods in and out of vehicles but they do mostly get home every night. The long-distance driver, generally paid much more, may drive a vehicle costing £10,000. He is likely to be away from home three or more nights a week and may well have responsibility for finding return loads. "Both types of drivers are very important men — a few bad deliveries can soon upset customer relations — but I give the edge to the long-distance trunk driver.'' Another highly topical matter is the growing disparity of management salaries in road transport in relation to drivers' pay. "What do you say" said Duncan Foulds, "to a depot manager responsible for 30 or 40 vehicles when he asks for more money and points out that his drivers may make £80 or £90 a week? I've met this problem with junior management and there's no reasonable answer — apart from the structure of the industry. You can try to persuade the young manager that with normal luck he will progressively assume greater responsibility and thus hope to make a bigger income. Senior traffic clerks where the going rate is perhaps £2000 a year may also feel disgruntled. The industry must ask itself whether it is paying a fair rate for any job in the current market place."

It is sometimes argued that in a relatively small nation like Britain, common rates and conditions should apply throughout an industry. In the motor industry — very close to road transport for obvious reasons — disparities between the pay of car workers in the Midlands and Scotland or Wales appear to be responsible for many disputes. In the European context, harmonization is tending towards common rates for haulage, fuel taxes, etc and it is arguable that drivers' pay in, say, Southern Italy should be the same as in Holland or Germany.

Duncan Foulds is strongly opposed to the idea of national road haulage rates. He points Out that circumstances vary greatly from territory to territory. House prices— and living costs generally —vary greatly as between the south and north of the country. "In negotiating pay rates you must have regard to local factors like market wage rates and the cost of living. I've generally found trade union officials to be very sensible in understanding this; certainly, in UTC, we would not have countenanced any move for a national pay structure."

In any large grouping of transport companies, questions of co-ordination inevitably arise. Individual companies can be left wholly independent in decision-making, subject only to meeting central requirements as to profitability, or subjected to varying degrees of close supervision — as, for example, with capital expenditure.

UTC company managers were given a large degree of freedom to choose their own preferred make of vehicles, for example, but there was a central policy for fuel supplies. The Board considered the pros and cons of an imposed policy of standardization and opted for the maximum decentralization consistent with the prevention of wasteful duplication of effort.

I asked Duncan Foulds if he favoured two or more diverse transport companies sharing a common depot, quoting the well-known example of parcels and general haulage fleets sharing the same site at Hull. He is opposed to the principle because it is likely to divide the unity of management control. If there is a common vehicle maintenance system there is the problem of priorities: 'Who has the privilege of first come, first served?"

Apart from the issue of principle, Duncan Foulds feels that the two sharing companies might well have different pay structures. If there is a pay disparity drivers would know about it immediately and friction could result.

I asked Mr Foulds if he had views on the risk taken by higher management in transport, mindful of the early deaths of some of his colleagues, such as Charles Boyd White, who did so much to promote UTC interests in Africa and elsewhere. He agreed that it was all too easy to burn yourself out. "You have to ask yourself if it's in your interest, or your family's or company's to work so intensively as to shorten your life. A company needs its best brains for the long term...."

He went on: "Everyone must at some stage conclude that he cannot do any more. In UTC we tried to ensure that managers conserved their strength. They were not threatened by "whiz kids". Retirement should be an option at any age around 60 to make way fcr younger men. But sizeable companies can't do without "elder statesmen-. There's room for a good mix of age and experience. Often companies get this only about half right and sometimes completely wrong. "Balance" comes with maturity. It need not be a retarding influence. It's rare, of course, to find maturity in a 25-year-old; I didn't have it then." (To be continued next week.)


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